View Poll Results: What do you think gun control should be like?

Voters
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  • Let everyone have a gun

    26 26.53%
  • Quick background check to purchase and carry

    28 28.57%
  • Quick background check to purchase, but more difficult to carry

    12 12.24%
  • Background check, waiting period for purchase and carrying.

    19 19.39%
  • Background check, waiting period, no carrying

    5 5.10%
  • No guns at all

    8 8.16%
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Thread: Guns

  1. #1061
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Misuse? What misuse. A firearm is made to shoot a projectile and hit an object. That is its intended use. To use it to nail something into apiece of wood might be a misuse. But to intentionally fire a bullet from it by squeezing a trigger is exactly the way it is suppose to be used. One cannot separate the object from the right to keep and bear that same object because that is the language of the Second Amendment. Or are you going to tell us that the Second Amendment is only to keep and bear arms but not fire them? That would be absurd.

    My purpose of calling the high school kids killed in Ohio heroes of the Second Amendment is because that is what they are. All of us live in a society where the Second Amendment is in effect. Part of that is the fact that in some areas there are more firearms than there are actual people. The proliferation of firearms means that we live in a society with a large number of firearms owned by a very large number of people. Connect the dots.

    You were afraid to answer my question before so Captain America did it for you. If there were no guns, there could be no American shot here. If there were but a single gun in the land, it could be easily controlled and there would be no large numbers of people killed each year with firearms. Same if there were but one gun per state. But that is not the reality of America. The reality of America is that we have a Second Amendment and we have millions upon million of guns and we have simply crossed over the tipping point with them. We now get all kinds of collateral damage from them. And we all live with the possibility that we can become collateral damage at any time on any day for almost any reason beyond our own control.

    The kids at Columbine suffered that fate.
    The kids in Ohio suffered that fate.
    The adults at Virginia Tech.
    I could add to that list from the historical record but the point is made.

    This is the America we live in. As such, this is a reality we accept. So that the good of the Second Amendment can be present in America - and I have repeatedly stated that on balance the Second Amendment is more good than bad - and the good things associated with the right to keep and bear arms can work in the land, we accept the collateral damage. We accept the reality that our children can die at any die for reasons that are senseless to us. We accept the reality people will commit crimes with guns, that people will commit suicide with guns, that there will be accidents with guns - and we all know the results. So we are all potential heroes of the Second Amendment in that we permit this, we allow this, we tolerate this, we accept this as American citizens. And when innocent citizens actually pay the price of that right to keep and bear arms with their own lives, they are true heroes.

    Turtle - it does not matter if you agree with me or not on this issue. It does not matter if you accept my explanation on this issue. It is irrelevant if you do or not.

    One cannot do as you have clearly stated and operate under the false self imposed belief that the Second Amendment is a pure good - a mitzvah - from which no bad can happen or flow. There are good advantages to the Second Amendment and there are negatives to the second Amendment. It is not the mitzvah or a Pure Good you believe it to be. No work of man can be for we are human and to be human is to err sometimes.

    Some of your fellow posters who are very supportive of weapons have seen this argument and side with it. What prevents you from seeing reality?
    that is just stupid. Victims are not heroes.

    You want to smear the right with dead kids

  2. #1062
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Under the principles upon which this nation was founded, we don't get to abridge someone's rights because we think he might commit a crime. What you call “flexible laws” that “may encourage the ones who tend to commit a crime to do it easily”, we call “freedom”. The vast majority of us do not ever, in our entire lifetimes, commit serious crimes. Those few who do, don't do so because the laws are too “flexible”. To make us less free does nothing to protect those of us who are not criminally-inclined from those who are, and even if it did, it's not consistent with the values on which this nation was founded. As one of the great men who founded this nation wrote, “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    i respect all founders,but the conditions have changed since he said these words.we are living in a crazy world in which lots of people have enough freedom to decide to kill someone or not and many liberties which you call freedom (and i call flexible laws)may end one's right to live in safety.

  3. #1063
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is just stupid. Victims are not heroes.

    You want to smear the right with dead kids
    This is Typical Turtle Talk. I give you a solid case based on reality, based on history, based on facts, based on analysis and based on evidence. You respond with personal pontifications that do not even speak to the points raised.

    I do no smear anyone. I did not kill those children. You conveniently seem to overlook that vital connection.

    I have not and do not advocate taking away anyone's Second Amendment rights. You also conveniently overlook that fact as well in your effort to attack and demonize me.

    Why?
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-10-12 at 07:58 AM.
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  4. #1064
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Under the principles upon which this nation was founded, we don't get to abridge someone's rights because we think he might commit a crime.
    If rights could be abridged based on some people being irresponsible, we'd have no cars, alcohol, etc etc etc.

  5. #1065
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    This is Typical Turtle Talk. I give you a solid case based on reality, based on history, based on facts, based on analysis and based on evidence. You respond with personal pontifications that do not even speak to the points raised.

    I do no smear anyone. I did not kill those children. You conveniently seem to overlook that vital connection.

    I have not and do not advocate taking away anyone's Second Amendment rights. You also conveniently overlook that fact as well in your effort to attack and demonize me.

    Why?

    No you didn't. Your claim is silly. Innocent victims are not the same as heroes. And the second amendment didn't kill those children nor did those children die because of our rights. Those children died because some asshole illegally shot them to death with a gun he couldn't legally possess

  6. #1066
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If rights could be abridged based on some people being irresponsible, we'd have no cars, alcohol, etc etc etc.
    All rights are indeed abridged because some people are irresponsible. Read the First Amendment. It clearly states that Congress shall make NO LAW in certain areas of freedom - two of which are speech and press. But yet, e have laws against the irresponsible use of these rights - slander and libel. Of course, we place limits on rights.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  7. #1067
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    All rights are indeed abridged because some people are irresponsible. Read the First Amendment. It clearly states that Congress shall make NO LAW in certain areas of freedom - two of which are speech and press. But yet, e have laws against the irresponsible use of these rights - slander and libel. Of course, we place limits on rights.
    duh that is obvious but tell me why are slain victims "heroes" and why is the second amendment the issue with you rather than same a memorial to victims

  8. #1068
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do no smear anyone. I did not kill those children. You conveniently seem to overlook that vital connection.
    Wait, what?

    What, then, is 'Typical Turtle Talk', and are you accusing TD of thinking that you killed children?

  9. #1069
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    No you didn't. Your claim is silly. Innocent victims are not the same as heroes. And the second amendment didn't kill those children nor did those children die because of our rights. Those children died because some asshole illegally shot them to death with a gun he couldn't legally possess
    Nobody said the amendment killed anyone.

    It has been explained to you that legality or illegality is irrelevant. We as a society recognize that there will be illegality. We as a society recognize that there will be the asshole. And we still preserve the right just the same. We all live with that knowledge. We all live with that reality. We support it. And some pay the ultimate price for it.

    And they are heroes.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  10. #1070
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    Re: Guns

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Nobody said the amendment killed anyone.

    It has been explained to you that legality or illegality is irrelevant. We as a society recognize that there will be illegality. We as a society recognize that there will be the asshole. And we still preserve the right just the same. We all live with that knowledge. We all live with that reality. We support it. And some pay the ultimate price for it.

    And they are heroes.
    that is the idiocy of your position-they are not heroes but victims and they didn't pay the price for us having a second amendment. You are trying to claim that if there was no second amendment there would be no innocents killed by whackos. That is a false assumption

    and you clearly are trying to impose a feeling of guilt on gun owners with your nonsense

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