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Guns

What do you think gun control should be like?

  • Let everyone have a gun

    Votes: 19 22.4%

  • Quick background check to purchase and carry

    Votes: 25 29.4%

  • Quick background check to purchase, but more difficult to carry

    Votes: 11 12.9%

  • Background check, waiting period for purchase and carrying.

    Votes: 17 20.0%

  • Background check, waiting period, no carrying

    Votes: 5 5.9%

  • No guns at all

    Votes: 8 9.4%
  • Total voters
    85
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Objective-J said:
FOr those of you that want no guns at all or long wait periods etc explain to me how you are helping law abiding citizens?

Banning guns or making it hard to get them does nothing but takes the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens while the criminals keep theirs, you basically punish and endanger good citizens while you empower criminals. Ill never understand how anybody thinks it will help/be better. Please explain your logic if you think this way.
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CRICKETS??????

nobody has an answer for this? nobody want to even try? I wonder why.
 
TurtleDude said:
Or me-name it I most likely I have owned it, or shot it extensively

These include

Walther PPK PP, PPKS

SIg Sauer P220, P226, P 228, P229, P239, P238

Every variation of the Beretta 92 from the Uber rare Billenium to the Brigadier, 84, 85

Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 26, 17L, 34

HK USP, P-30, 2000

Browning HP,

Star 30

SW Gen I, 2, 3 and three 59 style, MP in 45, 40, 9 MP compact 9, most of the revolvers
J frame, K frame L frame N frame from 22-44 Mag

SA XD 9 and 40

dozens of different 1911 style guns-Kimbers, Wilson Les Baer, Craig Custom, Colt, Randall (that's one you don't see much these days) Rock River (another rare one), Sig, Remington

Russian Makarov

Egyptian Helwan (Copy of the old 1951 Beretta Brigadier)

French MAS

Most of the various low circulation Italian Jobs like the Bernadelli

Ruger P9 P85 etc

that's without looking at my notes.
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Well, no argument there... Turtle owns guns I've never even heard of. :)
 
Goshin said:
Well, no argument there... Turtle owns guns I've never even heard of. :)
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reminds me of the scene from Terminator, where he asks for a "plasma rifle". Gun dealer says "hey, just what you see on the wall ok buddy?"

;)
 
Thunder said:
I'm sure that's what some assassin will tell the judge, after he murders a politician he feels has wronged him somehow. "I'm just fightin' fur liberty, yer honor".

maybe Jared Laughner can use that during his trial. I bet Tim McVeigh did, as did Mumia Abu-Jamal.
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Well, I'm going to tell ya something...

I don't approve of what McVeigh did, but I understand why he did it: revenge for what Reno and the Feds did to all those men women and children at Waco.

I'm not saying it was right... but it was a message and a wakeup call that there are consequences to things like Waco.

It is a hard thing to consider, but in a free society when the gov't pushes further than it should, it may well get pushed back.


Those who do that pushing may be labeled outlaws and terrorists and may well deserve the label they are put to death under.... but for whatever reason the Feds haven't pulled any more Wacos in a while, have they?


Again, I'm not saying I approve or that I would have done any such thing.... I'm just saying that actions have consequences.
 
Goshin said:
Well, I'm going to tell ya something...

I don't approve of what McVeigh did, but I understand why he did it: revenge for what Reno and the Feds did to all those men women and children at Waco.

I'm not saying it was right... but it was a message and a wakeup call that there are consequences to things like Waco.

It is a hard thing to consider, but in a free society when the gov't pushes further than it should, it may well get pushed back.


Those who do that pushing may be labeled outlaws and terrorists and may well deserve the label they are put to death under.... but for whatever reason the Feds haven't pulled any more Wacos in a while, have they?

Again, I'm not saying I approve or that I would have done any such thing.... I'm just saying that actions have consequences.
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yes, and some day, some lone-wolf revolutionary, or a conspiracy of revolutionaries, is gonna kill another politician, or blow up another Federal building, or detonate a subway car or bus, in order to fight "injustice".

and he is likely to use the exact same rationale that you uttered. "I was only fighting fur liberty n' freedom, cause' the government dun pushed too far"

I'm sure it will be a wonderful consolation, to the hundreds of families, who lost innocent loves ones, to know that their child, or husband, or wife, died as a martyr "fur freedom".
 
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Thunder said:
yes, and some day, some lone-wolf revolutionary, or a conspiracy of revolutionaies, is gonna kill another politician, or blow up another Federal building, or detonate a subway car or bus, in order to fight "injustice".

and he is likely to use the exact same rationale that you uttered. "I was only fighting fur liberty n' freedom"
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Show me where I used that statement you claim I uttered.

You like those strawmen doncha?
 
TurtleDude said:
Or me-name it I most likely I have owned it, or shot it extensively

These include

Walther PPK PP, PPKS

SIg Sauer P220, P226, P 228, P229, P239, P238

Every variation of the Beretta 92 from the Uber rare Billenium to the Brigadier, 84, 85

Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 26, 17L, 34

HK USP, P-30, 2000

Browning HP,

Star 30

SW Gen I, 2, 3 and three 59 style, MP in 45, 40, 9 MP compact 9, most of the revolvers
J frame, K frame L frame N frame from 22-44 Mag

SA XD 9 and 40

dozens of different 1911 style guns-Kimbers, Wilson Les Baer, Craig Custom, Colt, Randall (that's one you don't see much these days) Rock River (another rare one), Sig, Remington

Russian Makarov

Egyptian Helwan (Copy of the old 1951 Beretta Brigadier)

French MAS

Most of the various low circulation Italian Jobs like the Bernadelli

Ruger P9 P85 etc

that's without looking at my notes.
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When you get a chance do some work with the Walther P99, every time somebody who knows way more about guns than me (this isnt hard) shoots mine they claim its awesome and they are going to get one. I know for a fact some have :shrug: but again Im not upper level gun guy.
 
Goshin said:
Show me where I used that statement you claim I uttered.

You like those strawmen doncha?
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its not a strawman at all. its simply an interpretation of your post.

you say folks will push back when the government goes to far, and you "understand" why Tim McVeigh did what he did.

you don't think he was fightin' for freedom & liberty?

what about Mumia, and FALN, and The Weathermen, and the Black Panthers. do you approve of their fight for freedom & liberty as well?
 
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Thunder said:
its not a strawman at all. its simply an interpretation of your post.

you say folks will push back when the government goes to far, and you "understand" why Tim McVeigh did what he did.

you don't think he was fightin' for freedom & liberty?

what about Mumia, and FALN, and The Weathermen, and the Black Panthers. do you approve of their fight for freedom & liberty as well?
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I don't think you read my post. I said I didn't approve of McVeigh's actions.

I said that when gov't pushes too far, people tend to push back.

I placed no value judgement on this other than saying it sent a certain message about crossing certain limits.

If you're going to critique me at least be accurate.
 
Goshin said:
...I don't approve of what McVeigh did, but I understand why he did it: revenge for what Reno and the Feds did to all those men women and children at Waco.

I'm not saying it was right... but it was a message and a wakeup call that there are consequences to things like Waco.

It is a hard thing to consider, but in a free society when the gov't pushes further than it should, it may well get pushed back.


Those who do that pushing may be labeled outlaws and terrorists and may well deserve the label they are put to death under.... but for whatever reason the Feds haven't pulled any more Wacos in a while, have they?...
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Goshin said:
I don't think you read my post. I said I didn't approve of McVeigh's actions.

I said that when gov't pushes too far, people tend to push back.

I placed no value judgment on this other than saying it sent a certain message about crossing certain limits.

If you're going to critique me at least be accurate.
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looks like tacit approval, to me.

you state you UNDERSTAND why McVeigh killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

you then go on to suggest that there have been some positive benefits from his actions, since there haven't been any more Wacos.

you appear to be giving this a thumbs up...with your hand behind your back so no one can see it.
 
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Thunder said:
looks like tacit approval, to me.

you state you UNDERSTAND why McVeigh killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

you then go on to suggest that there have been some positive benefits from his actions, since there haven't been any more Wacos.

you appear to be giving this a thumbs up...with your hand behind your back so no one can see it.
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Oh I say that was a clever effort. :mrgreen:



Approve? No.

Recognize a principle and postulate that some positive effects can sometimes result from evil intentions... yes.


Any more mole hills you want to make Mt Everest out of?
 
TurtleDude said:
How about someone who was jumped in an alley by two thugs, and shot one of them and caused the other to lose control of his bowels so badly the Police Car had to be sent off for professional cleaning
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Did the the thugs have a gun? Did they point it at you? I only had one guy point his at me. I didn't have one.
 
TurtleDude said:
that's moronic. You ignore the 9th and 10th amendments and how can a militia be called up if citizens don't have arms?
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Oh? The militia were citizens that had arms. Oh, did the 9th and 10th correct the 2nd so the second doesn't apply anymore?
 
Thunder said:
looks like tacit approval, to me.

you state you UNDERSTAND why McVeigh killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

you then go on to suggest that there have been some positive benefits from his actions, since there haven't been any more Wacos.

you appear to be giving this a thumbs up...with your hand behind your back so no one can see it.
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I thought understanding why terrorism happens is not the same thing as justifying or condoning it. Or does that only apply to Islamic terrorism?
 
OhIsee.Then said:
Oh? The militia were citizens that had arms.
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hmm.. I would suggest it is irrelevant - the amendment reserves the right to the people. Mind you, the Founders didn't exactly draw big thick separating lines between those two categories:

"I ask sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
George Mason


A sufficient mass of independent, armed citizens is the final and ultimately the only defense against threats from abroad, domestic threats at home, and threats from our own government.

Some interesting recent research trying to pin down the actual amount of defensive gun usage









Turtle: I steadfastly opposed class envy until you posted that list of firearms. In the interest of fairness, I must now insist that you redistribute your shooting experiences in my direction by taking me to the range next time with you. :mrgreen:
 
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American said:
Bull****, it should be no issue at all. Have you ever read the 2nd Amendment, it applies to the Fed more than anyone. In my view, if I cross a state line with my Glock, it's none of their ****ing business.
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Yes, you are a member of the militia.
 
TurtleDude said:
the best thing to keep politicians in line is them knowing if they rape the rights of the righteous, an honest patriot might kill them
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Yup, an honest patriotic member of the militia is clearly in control for all of us.
 
cpwill said:
hmm.. I would suggest it is irrelevant - the amendment reserves the right to the people. Mind you, the Founders didn't exactly draw big thick separating lines between those two categories:

"I ask sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
George Mason


A sufficient mass of independent, armed citizens is the final and ultimately the only defense against threats from abroad, domestic threats at home, and threats from our own government.

Some interesting recent research trying to pin down the actual amount of defensive gun usage









Turtle: I steadfastly opposed class envy until you posted that list of firearms. In the interest of fairness, I must now insist that you redistribute your shooting experiences in my direction by taking me to the range next time with you. :mrgreen:
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There is a famous quoting of McTojo saying any effort to attack the American mainland would fail because "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass". I would say that is EXACTLY what the founders wanted, a citizenry so respected for their condition of being armed that no outside force would dare challenge.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
Yes, you are a member of the militia.
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All able bodied males aged 18-45 are. Really all citizens are but on paper the former is the law, in fact during a period of martial law it is legitimate to deputize or draft from the pool specifically stated for the purposes of defense both on the home front and for the military.
 
Objective-J said:
When you get a chance do some work with the Walther P99, every time somebody who knows way more about guns than me (this isnt hard) shoots mine they claim its awesome and they are going to get one. I know for a fact some have :shrug: but again Im not upper level gun guy.
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They are ok as striker fired handguns go and are very similar to a SW handgun (Smith and Wesson and Walther are in a joint venture relationship in the USA). They point well but never quite caught on like the Glock, XD or SW M&P did among the plastic framed pistols
 
Thunder said:
Tim McVeigh, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Jared Laughner, The Weathermen, The Black Panthers, FALN, all thought they were fighting injustice....by killing American law enforcement & politicians. Heroes of yours?
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That's just getting silly
 
OhIsee.Then said:
Did the the thugs have a gun? Did they point it at you? I only had one guy point his at me. I didn't have one.
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Nope-that's why I didn't kill either one of them
 
OhIsee.Then said:
Oh? The militia were citizens that had arms. Oh, did the 9th and 10th correct the 2nd so the second doesn't apply anymore?
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that's silly. the federal government never was delegated the power to regulate arms. Its a made up power that FDR did with the commerce clause
 
Years ago, one could support gun owners rights and still lobby for legislation on the subject. That is no longer possible in this current political environment which has taken a hard right turn. For some - and I say some and not all or even a majority - the First Amendment has supplanted the Second Amendment regarding gun rights in that their devotion and love of firearms is far closer to a religious like fervor based on willful belief than anything else. And right from little many are taught it is dangerous and nonproductive to mess with peoples religious beliefs.

Once upon a time, when we had mass killings in which firearms were involved, rational people discussed it and ideas for legislation were introduced and debated. We just saw three young people slaughtered in Chardon, Ohio and instead of spurring national discussion, those who want to do so are charged with using dead children to promote an agenda which is never identified.

There simply is no current environment for rational discussion on this topic.
 
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