View Poll Results: Which of these political leans would Jesus be?

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  • Liberal

    58 47.15%
  • Conservative

    14 11.38%
  • Moderate

    10 8.13%
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Thread: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

  1. #461
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No for the points I already pointed out it is very stupid.

    Conservative: anti gay marriage: Hell that falls right in with what the Bible teaches. Liberal: Charity for the poor: that fits right in with Christs teachings.
    You hit on a key issue.... the philosophy associated with the theology vs. planks/issues. When you talk to conservatives about alignment with the Bible, they consistently talk of gay marriage (or gay issues) and abortions. They over no other argument for alignment with the word of Christ. These are single issues / planks, not a philosophy. Yes, the Bible is quite clear about homosexual behavior, but its also very clear about divorce, adultery, greed and charity. If they are were truly concerned about legislation that was in line with Christian doctrine (clear dont's) then divorce would also be outlawed (or severely restricted) and adultery would be a crime. I do not believe in legislating morality as 1) it does not work and 2) if you are a God-fearing Christian, those matters are between the individual and God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So again I will have to disagree, it's very silly in my opinion. Almost any political philosophy can fit in with Christianity because it is NOT political. Hell, Hitler and Torquemada used Christianity for their own ends. So it can fit that as well.
    I probably am not having this discussion with a strong Christian, as you don't seem to get the primary point. If you are a strong Christian, and thus a follower of God's word, which Christ teachings were designed to help us (focus us) with, then you would clearly understand that you want to organize all things in your life in a way that glorifies the Lord, including your politics. Given that politics is the art of the debate that shapes government, which is the administrative unit of the common interest, you want your government moving in a direction that glorifies the Lord. Therefore, the very first place you look to in choosing a political philosophy is your theology. If you theology is not that important to you, then this is a silly statement; if it is, and you think this is a silly argument, then you have some soul searching to do (I would start by spending more time in the Gospel).

    This is entirely different then using Christianity for political gain... yes, you can do that (I think the Republicans do that).... but its using words, usually to manipulate those that do not know the Bible. The Bible tells us of many false prophets and charlatans, for this reason, we are to be versed in the Word so that we have discernment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Neither follows what Jesus preached most: Love thy neighbor.

    Please point out which you think is closer, and I will point out how that is garbage.
    Though Jesus taught us to love the thy neighbor, it was a subtext of what he preached about the most, which was the Kingdom. Christ was a Rabbi. He was a teacher of the Word, which was of course, what we refer to as the Old Testament. His point was to clarify it and make it come alive. He spoke of the pratfalls that mankind had encountered to date. In that regard, he spoke most often of worrying about your riches in heaven and not on earth; he spoke very often about the love for money and how it was an idol, that no man can have two Gods (God and money), as you will love one and hate the other.

    He taught righteous living. He consistently used other people and our relationships with those people to illustrate God's relationship with us. We are to "love the neighbor", as we expect God to love us; we are to forgive our neighbor as we expect God to forgive us..... or, really better put, we are to love our neighbor, because God loves us; and we are to forgive our neighbor as God forgives us. Most of his parables follow and illustrate this theme (or speak of the Kingdom)..... .. and t. he core theme of being Christian is the death of self and the enslavement by God. We are not to be concerned about ourselves (Mathew 5 and 6, which are really the core of Christian theology, are very clear on this).... the concept of JOY (Jesus, Others, Yourself) should be how you think of the world.... so much for today's theology lesson (happy to help you with Bible passages, if you require, on any of this), but key to the next paragraph.

    But, out of the "love thy neighbor" I do find the core philosophy of the Democratic party more aligned with my theology. In theory, it concerns itself with those that are without power; the poor, the elderly, the minorities, the handicapped, the laborer. They are not a party of "me or Yourself" first, but others first. They, as a philosophy believes as society moves forward only when its weakest link moves forward... I believe that. The other guys, seem to believe that if each individual worried only about himself, society would moves forward... that when the strong prevail, they bring everyone along with them. It has been the prevailing political philosophy since 1980, and all it has done is make the strong, stronger and the weak, weaker..... If Arab spring taught us nothing, it should teach us that you can not maintain a government with an educated mass where the few get all the profits.

  2. #462
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    You hit on a key issue.... the philosophy associated with the theology vs. planks/issues. When you talk to conservatives about alignment with the Bible, they consistently talk of gay marriage (or gay issues) and abortions. They over no other argument for alignment with the word of Christ. These are single issues / planks, not a philosophy. Yes, the Bible is quite clear about homosexual behavior, but its also very clear about divorce, adultery, greed and charity. If they are were truly concerned about legislation that was in line with Christian doctrine (clear dont's) then divorce would also be outlawed (or severely restricted) and adultery would be a crime. I do not believe in legislating morality as 1) it does not work and 2) if you are a God-fearing Christian, those matters are between the individual and God.
    So you are suggesting Republicans want a theocracy basically and they must pursue this or they are not being Christians?. You do realize that is absolute nonsense. You are trying to lump conservative Christians as if they are clones, all thinking in lock step. It does not work like that. Painting with such a huge brush is bigotry at it's finest. Then in the same breath you say you do not believe in legislating morality?

    "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I probably am not having this discussion with a strong Christian, as you don't seem to get the primary point.
    Now you are sitting in judgement of who is or is not a "strong" Christian? You are basing this on a question you feel I am not getting? Good thing the lord knows my heart and not you as you are ready to condemn me.

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    If you are a strong Christian, and thus a follower of God's word, which Christ teachings were designed to help us (focus us) with, then you would clearly understand that you want to organize all things in your life in a way that glorifies the Lord, including your politics. Given that politics is the art of the debate that shapes government, which is the administrative unit of the common interest, you want your government moving in a direction that glorifies the Lord. Therefore, the very first place you look to in choosing a political philosophy is your theology. If you theology is not that important to you, then this is a silly statement; if it is, and you think this is a silly argument, then you have some soul searching to do (I would start by spending more time in the Gospel).
    You have got to be kidding? Please point out where in the Gospels it talks about Jesus getting involved in Roman politics, or him telling his disciples to do so? In fact in 1st Peter it says submit yourself's to every ordinance and so on...

    "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme, or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    This is entirely different then using Christianity for political gain... yes, you can do that (I think the Republicans do that).... but its using words, usually to manipulate those that do not know the Bible. The Bible tells us of many false prophets and charlatans, for this reason, we are to be versed in the Word so that we have discernment.
    Well you have some real studying to do then. Because you are casting stones, big ones. So only Republicans do this huh? Do you really want to go there? Or do you want to back track and confess your political hackery right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Though Jesus taught us to love the thy neighbor, it was a subtext of what he preached about the most, which was the Kingdom. Christ was a Rabbi. He was a teacher of the Word, which was of course, what we refer to as the Old Testament. His point was to clarify it and make it come alive. He spoke of the pratfalls that mankind had encountered to date. In that regard, he spoke most often of worrying about your riches in heaven and not on earth; he spoke very often about the love for money and how it was an idol, that no man can have two Gods (God and money), as you will love one and hate the other.
    What???? Secondary????

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    He taught righteous living. He consistently used other people and our relationships with those people to illustrate God's relationship with us. We are to "love the neighbor", as we expect God to love us; we are to forgive our neighbor as we expect God to forgive us..... or, really better put, we are to love our neighbor, because God loves us; and we are to forgive our neighbor as God forgives us. Most of his parables follow and illustrate this theme (or speak of the Kingdom)..... .. and t. he core theme of being Christian is the death of self and the enslavement by God. We are not to be concerned about ourselves (Mathew 5 and 6, which are really the core of Christian theology, are very clear on this).... the concept of JOY (Jesus, Others, Yourself) should be how you think of the world.... so much for today's theology lesson (happy to help you with Bible passages, if you require, on any of this), but key to the next paragraph.
    Now we can include prideful. Keep going.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    But, out of the "love thy neighbor" I do find the core philosophy of the Democratic party more aligned with my theology. In theory, it concerns itself with those that are without power; the poor, the elderly, the minorities, the handicapped, the laborer. They are not a party of "me or Yourself" first, but others first. They, as a philosophy believes as society moves forward only when its weakest link moves forward... I believe that. The other guys, seem to believe that if each individual worried only about himself, society would moves forward... that when the strong prevail, they bring everyone along with them. It has been the prevailing political philosophy since 1980, and all it has done is make the strong, stronger and the weak, weaker..... If Arab spring taught us nothing, it should teach us that you can not maintain a government with an educated mass where the few get all the profits.
    Hehehehehehe!

    This is such political hackery man it is not even worth addressing. I will leave you with this...

    15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” 21 “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” 22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #463
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    But, out of the "love thy neighbor" I do find the core philosophy of the Democratic party more aligned with my theology. In theory, it concerns itself with those that are without power; the poor, the elderly, the minorities, the handicapped, the laborer. They are not a party of "me or Yourself" first, but others first. They, as a philosophy believes as society moves forward only when its weakest link moves forward... I believe that. The other guys, seem to believe that if each individual worried only about himself, society would moves forward...
    really?

    hmmm.....

    ...Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives...

    -- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household...

    -- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood...

    -- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition...

    While conservatives tend to regard giving as a personal rather than governmental responsibility, some liberals consider private charity a retrograde phenomenon -- a poor palliative for an inadequate welfare state, and a distraction from achieving adequacy by force, by increasing taxes. Ralph Nader, running for president in 2000, said: "A society that has more justice is a society that needs less charity." Brooks, however, warns: "If support for a policy that does not exist ... substitutes for private charity, the needy are left worse off than before. It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."...
    I would suspect that the Democrat party approaches charity more in the manner of Pharisee's fasting - giving off the public image so you can reap the well-wishes and social rewards, but not privately, where it matters.


    meanwhile, what does Paul tell us about how to give?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Cor 9

    6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:

    “They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
    their righteousness endures forever.”[a]
    so... when Democrats start making tax rates optional so that each can give as he has decided in his heart, and when they start putting their money where their mouth is, instead of using State Power to put others money there... well, then, it might be charity. until then, however, it's just coercion, and attempting to confuse what is Caesars with what is Gods.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-25-12 at 09:39 PM.

  4. #464
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Jesus was staunchly apolitical. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's. I am amused when liberal's try to paint conservatives as unchristian for opposing government programs, even those that help poor or disadvantaged people. Not once do I recall Jesus' stating to to "Go forth and petition thy government to help the poor" He was very specific about doing things from one's own heart and of one's free will.
    From the ashes.

  5. #465
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Jesus was a liberal in his day because he challenged the tradition and didn't accept it, and I am talking about the tradition of his religion.

    Jesus would definitely not be a Conservative of the warhawk breed. I am pretty sure he would have been against invading Iraq, because he was never pro war or violence.

    Other than that, I think Jesus would be a liberal in the modern times as he was in his time. I think he'd challenge the traditional beliefs many Christians hold strongly today. I won't name which ones, cause I don't know... but I think people should be open to the fact that Jesus foremost, is a teacher, and didn't directly tell anybody to go with the Catholic, Mormon, or whatever church, therefore, Jesus would probably challenge some beliefs and teachings of nearly every church.

  6. #466
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Jesus was staunchly apolitical. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's. I am amused when liberal's try to paint conservatives as unchristian for opposing government programs, even those that help poor or disadvantaged people. Not once do I recall Jesus' stating to to "Go forth and petition thy government to help the poor" He was very specific about doing things from one's own heart and of one's free will.
    My problem is that many Christians want it both ways. You have people like Huckabee wanting to insert Jesus in the Constitution or whatever. Sanatorum wants to ban porn. Mormons in Utah have banned a lot of alcoholic beverages, because they are against it.

    It's not hard to see that Christians want to impose their religious beliefs on others through the law... just look at the power and sway the churches in CA had over Prop8. Oh, but then they refuse to impose their beliefs on others through the law by helping the poor. WTF. It doesn't make sense to me. I think it says a lot about 1. their priorities, and 2. how much power the political system has on their core religious beliefs.


    It's just pure BS. They're picking and choosing which fight for Jesus they'll fight politically.


    You want to make that argument and you can, but I'll never respect such an argument for the reasons stated above.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 04-04-12 at 02:47 AM.

  7. #467
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Jesus was a liberal in his day because he challenged the tradition and didn't accept it, and I am talking about the tradition of his religion.
    No he was not. He fully supported the OT and all it's laws, period. What he was against were the pharisees who pretended to be pious but had no real faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Jesus would definitely not be a Conservative of the warhawk breed. I am pretty sure he would have been against invading Iraq, because he was never pro war or violence.
    You are making incorrect assumption's:

    Matthew 10:34-36 - "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a manís enemies will be the members of his household."

    Luke 12:51,52 - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."

    (Luke 22:36) - "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."

    The peace Jesus was bringing was a personal faith not your "worldly" definition.

    John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Other than that, I think Jesus would be a liberal in the modern times as he was in his time.
    And it would be wrong as he was not political at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I think he'd challenge the traditional beliefs many Christians hold strongly today. I won't name which ones, cause I don't know... but I think people should be open to the fact that Jesus foremost, is a teacher, and didn't directly tell anybody to go with the Catholic, Mormon, or whatever church, therefore, Jesus would probably challenge some beliefs and teachings of nearly every church.
    You mean like he changed the old one's?

    Matthew 5:18 - I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    He would not change God's law which is his law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #468
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    My problem is that many Christians want it both ways. You have people like Huckabee wanting to insert Jesus in the Constitution or whatever. Sanatorum wants to ban porn. Mormons in Utah have banned a lot of alcoholic beverages, because they are against it.
    So what do you suggest? We no longer support or morals and beliefs and accept yours and yours alone? Each person has a moral compass that is distinctly their own and no matter where it comes from it is their right to follow it as they see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    It's not hard to see that Christians want to impose their religious beliefs on others through the law... just look at the power and sway the churches in CA had over Prop8. Oh, but then they refuse to impose their beliefs on others through the law by helping the poor. WTF. It doesn't make sense to me. I think it says a lot about 1. their priorities, and 2. how much power the political system has on their core religious beliefs.
    Please name a person who is politically active who does not want to makes laws as they see fit? Or force the laws they want to see on society? Yea, look in the mirror.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    It's just pure BS. They're picking and choosing which fight for Jesus they'll fight politically.
    No. They are picking and choosing which laws THEY want to fight which is their right as American citizens. Has nothing to with fighting anything for Jesus. Some may see it that way, and they would be wrong as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    You want to make that argument and you can, but I'll never respect such an argument for the reasons stated above.
    Your reasons are highly flawed.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-04-12 at 03:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #469
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    He would have been a cult leader.

  10. #470
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    He would have been a cult leader.
    All religions fall under the definition of "cult" so what? "Cult" is not a negative term if that's what you are shooting for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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