View Poll Results: Which of these political leans would Jesus be?

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  • Liberal

    58 47.15%
  • Conservative

    14 11.38%
  • Moderate

    10 8.13%
  • Potato

    41 33.33%
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Thread: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

  1. #391
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinS View Post
    Classical Liberalism =/= Libertarianism
    Upon which century are you basing that..... 17th or 18th?
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  2. #392
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Upon which century are you basing that..... 17th or 18th?
    From what I know, Classical Liberalism hasn't been used as a term to identify Libertarianism until sometime in the 20th century.

  3. #393
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinS View Post
    From what I know, Classical Liberalism hasn't been used as a term to identify Libertarianism until sometime in the 20th century.
    That is not what I asked.

    What definition of classical liberalism as it existed in what century are you using to equate it with libertarianism?
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  4. #394
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is not what I asked.

    What definition of classical liberalism as it existed in what century are you using to equate it with libertarianism?
    Do you think I am trying to equate classical liberalism with libertarianism? I said that they weren't equal.

    I define Classical Liberalism as a philosophy that seeks to preserve and diffuse democracy, holds that the world can be improved by human effort, views the individual as having moral primacy over any collective entity (and hence sees the primary purpose of the state as being the facilitation of conditions in which citizens are allowed autonomous choice), values (relatively) free and open markets, and is focused more on humanity as a whole rather than specific cultural origins or histories.

    Historically, earlier Classical Liberals (e.g. John Locke) have used the social contract as a means of explaining the relationship between individuals and their governments, which generally puts Libertarians to the right of Classical Liberals in regards to social responsibility and economic regulation (i.e., Libertarianism as an ideology has more individualist and laissez-faire tendencies than earlier Classical Liberals). Of course the later "Classical Liberals" (e.g. Hayek) may not have favored the social contract, but I generally don't include them in my definition and categorize them as Libertarians (since they are basically indistinguishable from Libertarians).

  5. #395
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by nathanjames1791 View Post
    If Jesus was not concerned with the world of man then why did he ever come to earth?
    because He loves men.

    it doesn't make much sense until you shift to begin considering human beings as immortal beings; and the governing systems in which they may reside for a brief second of time here on earth as inherently phantasmal. Jesus cared alot less about your government than about whether your properly related to it and to others.

  6. #396
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    You still have, for example, yet to explain how fascism can exist stripped of all the things that identify it as "fascism". In Heaven there is no large welfare state, for the simple enough reason that there is no need for welfare.
    Really? Jesus ddn't promise that the State would provide welfare for the needs of its citizens? Matt 6:25-33


    There is no martial law, for the simple enough reason that there is no crime.
    Why is there no crime? Isn't it a crime to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

    fascism involves (among other things) placing the origin of the eschaton in the corporate personhood of the State; which not only isn't present in Heaven, but is indeed idol-worship.
    And where do you believe Jesus places the origin of the eschaton?

    National Socialism? There is neither Nationalism (for all are together and loved and love each other in Christ Jesus)
    So you are a universalist then? Do you also believe that Satan will be together and loved in Jesus Christ? If not, loyalty to the Kingdom of God is nationalism.

    nor Socialism (for there is no scarcity, but only ever present abundance) in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Who will control the means of production in heaven?

    Ideologies such as Fascism, Socialism, Conservatism, do not exist - they are limited, earth-bound creations of man, built upon sand, and doomed as surely as the sun, though they shall not last nearly as long.
    Ok. But Emperor Palpatine was a fascist, and so was Jesus.

  7. #397
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the choice to choose Christ or not is your own - if this makes him a dictator, it makes him the only dictator I can think of off hand who let's anyone tell Him to go F himself.
    So you believe that people in Heaven will tell Jesus to go F Himself and be allowed to remain in Heaven? What does Jesus say about the consequence of speaking out against the State, a.k.a blasphemy?

  8. #398
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I brought up the analogy. Panache is complaining that God does not rape, but only woos. Then he is accusing him of rape all the same. It seems he isn't quite sure precisely what he believes (in the sense of having a fully thought out internally coherent belief structure), but is rather throwing whatever makes Christianity sound sort of bad at a wall and seeing if it sticks.
    The structure isn't really that hard to follow. If I tell a girl that I really want her to choose to have sex with me of her own free will and that if she doesn't I will shoot her in the head and it will be her fault for choosing not to have sex with me, are you saying that is rape?

    How is this different from God saying He wants me to choose Him of my own free will and that if I don't He will cast me into a lake of fire to burn in eternal torment?

  9. #399
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Really? Jesus ddn't promise that the State would provide welfare for the needs of its citizens? Matt 6:25-33
    here is that verse:

    25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

    28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
    nowhere in it do I see the word "government".

    Why is there no crime?
    because we are born anew and made perfect

    And where do you believe Jesus places the origin of the eschaton?
    Himself

    So you are a universalist then? Do you also believe that Satan will be together and loved in Jesus Christ? If not, loyalty to the Kingdom of God is nationalism.
    no. again you seem to have poor grasp on key terms here. Nationalism is when you take your identity from your Nation, from your ethno-cultural background, from an earth-bound corporate personhood.

    Who will control the means of production in heaven?
    why would there be means of production in Heaven?

    Ok. But Emperor Palpatine was a fascist, and so was Jesus.
    um... no. again, you appear to have no idea what Fascism is, nor apparently what Christ or Christianity is about.

  10. #400
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    So you believe that people in Heaven will tell Jesus to go F Himself and be allowed to remain in Heaven?
    really failure to grasp.

    look - you get that we aren't talking about a physical, geographic location within the universe?
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-14-12 at 10:16 AM.

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