View Poll Results: Which of these political leans would Jesus be?

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  • Liberal

    58 47.15%
  • Conservative

    14 11.38%
  • Moderate

    10 8.13%
  • Potato

    41 33.33%
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Thread: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

  1. #331
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mya View Post
    Each one can think what he/she wants!
    Not much to debate there. Do you not think that fasciest is an appropriate label for Jesus' political ideology? If not, why not?

  2. #332
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Thats cool. Can definitely classify Him and His followers as fascists though.
    not at all - fascism entails an obsession with overweening government, of which there is likely little or none in the Kingdom of Heaven. "If men were angels", Madison points out "there would be no need of government." Well, in Heaven we shall be, insofar as we shall have a lack of all those things that make government necessary.

  3. #333
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all - fascism entails an obsession with overweening government, of which there is likely little or none in the Kingdom of Heaven. "If men were angels", Madison points out "there would be no need of government." Well, in Heaven we shall be, insofar as we shall have a lack of all those things that make government necessary.
    A Kingdom is a type of government. If Madison were correct, then how did Satan fall? Was it not for his rebellion against being governed?

  4. #334
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    A Kingdom is a type of government. If Madison were correct, then how did Satan fall? Was it not for his rebellion against being governed?

    Satan? what are you Santorum? omg!

  5. #335
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mya View Post
    Satan? what are you Santorum? omg!
    In what way does that make sense?

  6. #336
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    A Kingdom is a type of government.
    not necessarily. Britain has a Queen - in no real way does she "govern". Government primarily is for the imposition of law, backed by force. In the Kingdom of Heaven, there is neither Law nor the need to use Force against the citizenry, so the notion that there could be "fascism" is sort of silly. Fascism is at once far too small and attempts to achieve far too much to fit inside of Christianity, and Jesus on Earth probably wouldn't have given it any more of a fig than He gave the various political factions of his day. Christians have existed inside of Monarchies, Democracies, Socialism, each of which in turn has claimed at some point the mantle of Christ to bolster their legitimacy. All of it ridiculous and besides the point: administrations, forms of government, civilizations are all transient and phantasmal things compared to the immoral souls who live in it for a mere handful of years out of infinity. I would suspect it is important to Christ only inasmuch as it tends to effect their eternal choice in one direction or the other. The only example I am aware of that would give us a hint of God's political preferences would be found in his response to the people's request for a King in Samuel:

    Quote Originally Posted by I Samuel Chapter 8
    all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.”

    6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

    10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

    19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

    21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”...
    So, Kings are bad because they seize property, impose taxes, and put people to the service of the government rather than leaving them free to pursue their own interests. that doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement of Fascism.

    If Madison were correct, then how did Satan fall?
    good question. the only eyewitness account we have doesn't really say except to say that it was "like lightning".

    Was it not for his rebellion against being governed?
    It was for the Sin of Pride. I'm not sure you would call it Being Governed, unless you wish to reject Gods' will, in which case you are rather rejecting Heaven by your own choice.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-04-12 at 06:45 AM.

  7. #337
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So how do the people collecting the taxes acquire the authority to do so, when if you or I did the same thing we would be said to be stealing? Who gives them the authority? Those collecting the taxes are people just like you and me, right? What is so special about them that gives them the moral authority to do what you and I are forbidden from doing?
    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Enter the 5th grade civics class; then Wikipedia; then THINK !
    Go to Washington DC and ask these pointed questions....
    So you yourself can't offer any reason why some people are more special than others and have the authority to tax?

  8. #338
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    What debate... can you reiterate any points made?
    Here's a quick synopsis. Most people agree that it is wrong to steal, yet most people also think it is fine for "the government" to tax. My argument is that the rules of morality apply to everyone, and that everyone ought not steal, including the people constituting the government. If stealing is wrong, then it ought to be considered wrong for all people, not just for some people.

    Someone said government taxation was thievery... and that I 'had' to prove it wasn't.
    They should prove they arent crazy.
    You don't HAVE to prove anything. You can simply issue your statements, and refuse to support them with any logical argument at all. It your choice, but people are more likely to agree with you if you can walk them through some sort of stepwise, logical reasoning.

    I regard taxation as no different than theft, since both acts consist of one person forcibly taking the property of another. If all people are bound by the same ethical rules, then I see no other way to regard taxation. I have explained my reasoning. You have not explained yours, other than to repeat that some people (the government) have special powers that the rest of us don't have. Yet you fail to even attempt to explain where these special people acquire this special exemption from the normal rules of ethical behavior.

  9. #339
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    You mean all the strange abstract insane stuff about the government stealing?
    Calling a position strange, abstract, and insane is not a counter-argument.

  10. #340
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    Re: Would Jesus be a Liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    1) The government is not an individual the analogy is invalid
    2) the government is part of a social contract that establishes law order and civilization, the analogy is invalid
    3) the government drafts the laws and enforces them that you may not be robbed in the first place.
    Calling a certain group of people "the government" and then saying that the normal rules of social behavior don't apply to these people because, after all, they're "the government" is to completely sidestep the issue.

    You completely miss the point of lizzie's question. Other than that certain people are called "the government", what is different about one person pointing a gun at you and saying give me money and another person pointing a gun at your and saying give me money? Two people, doing exactly the same act, yet you claim one person is acting morally and another is acting immorally.

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