View Poll Results: Would you vote for an atheist president with your views?

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  • Yes, I would, his beliefs shouldn't matter

    64 90.14%
  • No, he needs to believe in God, even if he agrees with me

    7 9.86%
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Thread: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

  1. #151
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nope, but without intelligence you cannot develop a moral code. Intellect does not guarantee morality, but you cannot have morality without it.
    Now that's an interesting question, depending on how much you want to dig in to it. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but here's the other side of that debate.

    If one isn't aware that they are acting immorally, are they actually guilty of anything? Throughout legal history (not just in our nation, but around the world) that answer has been "no," and I believe the concept is called "mens rea."

    Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Put another way, can an animal be immoral? No, animals are blameless of all moral wrongdoing because they're not aware that anything they do is wrong.

    Therefore, intelligence is not needed for morality. Intelligence simply imposes a higher burden of morality on us. Since we are aware of right and wrong, we are obligated to do what is right.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 02-20-12 at 09:57 PM.

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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Now that's an interesting question, depending on how much you want to dig in to it. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but here's the other side of that debate.

    If one isn't aware that they are acting immorally, are they actually guilty of anything? Throughout legal history (not just in our nation, but around the world) that answer has been "no," and I believe the concept is called "mens rea."

    Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Put another way, can an animal be immoral? No, animals are blameless of all moral wrongdoing because they're not aware that anything they do is wrong.

    Therefore, intelligence is not needed for morality. Intelligence simply imposes a higher burden of morality on us. Since we are aware of right and wrong, we are obligated to do what is right.
    One can say that without concept of morality, one cannot be nor can be a moral creature. It takes the intelligence to know the difference for it to mean anything at all. An animal is neither moral nor immoral; it is amoral.
    Last edited by Ikari; 02-20-12 at 10:02 PM.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    One can say that without concept of morality, one cannot be nor can be a moral creature. It takes the intelligence to know the difference for it to mean anything at all. An animal is neither moral nor immoral; it is amoral.
    That's right. Continuing that line of thought, it follows then that the more intelligent or learned one is, the more they are aware of what is right and what is wrong. The more intelligent one is, the higher the moral burden one bears.

    Yet, seeing the difference between right and wrong doesn't imply that they will choose to do what is right.

    There is a choice involved as well. How do you define that?

  4. #154
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Well, you can if you never question authority, and there are people who do live that way.
    What? To be genuinely moral you must question authority least the authority you are following is not moral. Gosh, that happens all the time.

  5. #155
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    That's right. Continuing that line of thought, it follows then that the more intelligent or learned one is, the more they are aware of what is right and what is wrong. The more intelligent one is, the higher the moral burden one bears.

    Yet, seeing the difference between right and wrong doesn't imply that they will choose to do what is right.

    There is a choice involved as well. How do you define that?
    I find your bigoted view of Atheists rude and obnoxiousness. Non-religious people are not robots, we have feelings and morals just like any other human. Your entire assertion is ass backwards primitively archaic and unintelligent in vain of 18th century European people treating other people as savages.

    Again our countries forefathers were correct in building an Representative Democracy to curb the bigoted majority.

  6. #156
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    What? To be genuinely moral you must question authority least the authority you are following is not moral. Gosh, that happens all the time.
    Not really. Morality is adherence to a set of moral beliefs and principles. There are people who do live a moral life by not questioning the basis for those moral principles. People like this will typically be found in religious institutions, where the guidance of the church and/or the religion is adequate proof to them that morality is important. Others (like myself) are compelled to question and challenge those moral principles, and arrive at an answer as to their validity by questioning, experience, and observation of the results.

    They are both moral people, but with different learning methods and different means to acquiring knowledge.
    Last edited by lizzie; 02-21-12 at 10:59 AM.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Not really. Morality is adherence to a set of moral beliefs and principles. There are people who do live a moral life by not questioning the basis for those moral principles. People like this will typically be found in religious institutions, where the guidance of the church and/or the religion is adequate proof to them that morality is important.

    Others (like myself) are compelled to question and challenge those moral principles, and arrive at an answer as to their validity by questioning, experience, and observation of the results.

    They are both moral people, but with different learning methods and different means to acquiring knowledge.
    Needs to be repeated...

    Thanks Lizzie..

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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Not really. Morality is adherence to a set of moral beliefs and principles. There are people who do live a moral life by not questioning the basis for those moral principles. People like this will typically be found in religious institutions, where the guidance of the church and/or the religion is adequate proof to them that morality is important. Others (like myself) are compelled to question and challenge those moral principles, and arrive at an answer as to their validity by questioning, experience, and observation of the results.

    They are both moral people, but with different learning methods and different means to acquiring knowledge.
    Thanks for making yourself very clear. And we clearly disagree. (When I thought about this more I realized that the process I use to understand the world is the same as I use in design engineering.) The people you describe as being moral that are followers as you describe are at risk of following leadership into amoral behavior; history if full of examples. So if followers were following leadership and behaving morally; but, then screwed up and followed leadership into amoral behavior, my POV is that they were never moral in the first place.

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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Thanks for making yourself very clear. And we clearly disagree. (When I thought about this more I realized that the process I use to understand the world is the same as I use in design engineering.) The people you describe as being moral that are followers as you describe are at risk of following leadership into amoral behavior; history if full of examples. So if followers were following leadership and behaving morally; but, then screwed up and followed leadership into amoral behavior, my POV is that they were never moral in the first place.
    They are at risk, no doubt, but the difference lies in the actions of said individual. Morality can clearly be seen by the actions of the individual, and by the way they live their lives. Being at risk does not mean that one will become immoral.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Vote for an atheist president (for religious people)

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    I find your bigoted view of Atheists rude and obnoxiousness. Non-religious people are not robots, we have feelings and morals just like any other human. Your entire assertion is ass backwards primitively archaic and unintelligent in vain of 18th century European people treating other people as savages.

    Again our countries forefathers were correct in building an Representative Democracy to curb the bigoted majority.
    QFT. I wish I could like this more than once. I could spot 5 non-sequiturs in his post. How many did you count?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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