View Poll Results: Which One Trumps The Other

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Freedom

    23 79.31%
  • Fairness

    5 17.24%
  • Uniformity

    1 3.45%
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 51

Thread: Freedom Or Fairness

  1. #11
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,157

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This could be interesting. Its possible we're about to see a perfect example of partisanship and division, and this will be an especially pure division because the original question has so many possible meanings. I wonder if people are going to start dividing into two camps, where one argues for one definition of the words and another argues for a different definition. For example, one camp could argue fairness means fairness under the law while another could argue that fairness means something more like communism where everyone's lives are equal.

    My opinion is that as it stands now, the question is so vague its meaningless. What exactly the OP means by each of his choices is anyone's guess. So we are going to apply our own definitions to those words and argue as if that's the real meaning, OR we are going to see someone who we don't like or has an opposing political lean and argue against whatever they say because we know we disagree with them by default.

    Going to be interesting. So far we got MarineTpartier, throwing the first blow, I wonder if other self described conservatives will follow his lead naturally. And I wonder if self described liberals, or at least those who disagree with conservatives, will follow the idea that its a False dichotomy because its the natural opposing position.

    You raise some interesting points.

    I am pretty much center-right, perhaps I can expand on this a bit.

    This question can be construed as a false dichotomy, or as a mutually exclusive choice, but I don't think either of those views is entirely correct.... just like the question "freedom or order?" or "freedom or security?"

    A certain amount of one is necessary to the existence of the other... yet at the same time, taking either to an extreme tends to drastically reduce the other principle.

    For instance, let's say we had absolute freedom and absolute self-soveriegnty, and gov't only existed to secure the borders against outsiders and to punish those who INITIATED force or fraud against an innocent party (the nonaggression principle of libertarianism). Let's say there were no government services whatsoever, and the libertarian ideal of privatized-everything was the norm, including privatized cops.

    You'd be free. You'd be free to starve to death if you can't find a job, free to be victimized by whoever had more power than you if you couldn't afford to pay for cop/security services.... I suppose you'd be free to sell yourself into slavery if that was the only way not to starve to death. If you're mentally or physically limited and can't work and the church-sponsored homeless shelters are full I guess you're free to freeze to death on the street. Those who are best at accumulating capital will be free to accumulate it until they own everything in town and you either work for them or starve.

    Doesn't sound too good, eh?

    Let's try maximizing fairness. Everybody gets an equal share of the Gross Domestic Product. Everybody who is able gets a job of some kind, whatever they're suited for, makework if we can't find anything else you can do, but everybody gets paid the same. Everyone has the same access to healthcare or any other limited resource as everyone else.

    Well, what happens? There is no incentive to achieve or excel. There is no incentive to work extra hard or seek promotion. There is no incentive to go to college other than pride and status. Enterpreneurship and invention decline. Productivity declines. Pretty soon each person's share of the GDP starts to decline. Eventually we're all equally poor.

    Not too good either, eh?

    This is why a middle-of-the-road centrist approach makes more sense. Some entity (ie gov't) has to ensure that those with lots of power (ie corporations, capitalists, warlords) don't use that power to abuse and mistreat those with little power (ie Joe Workingdude) and that there's some reasonable effort to give everyone a fair opportunity to excel. At the same time, you need to maximize freedom within that context so that creativity and invention and enterpreneurship isn't stifled, and so that greater productivity has its incentives.

    I voted Freedom, because to me freedom is the sine-qua-non of life, but in truth we have to have a measure of fairness as well or freedom simply means the freedom to be abused by those with more power.
    Last edited by Goshin; 02-12-12 at 10:48 AM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  2. #12
    Sage
    Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Turkey
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    38,011

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    if there is a real fairness ,you can get enough freedom

  3. #13
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,067

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    False dichotomy.
    failure to read the polls' question.

  4. #14
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Gina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    31,850

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    failure to read the polls' question.
    This is in relation to requiring the Catholic church to provide birth control coverage to their employees? You said this in your Obama vs. Catholics thread.
    Last edited by Gina; 02-12-12 at 01:20 PM.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  5. #15
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Choose which ye shall serve.
    Ultimately, both concepts need each other to give value.

    Edit: I saw goshin's post and he said it far better than my one liner.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-12-12 at 01:34 PM.

  6. #16
    Guru

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Seen
    06-28-17 @ 10:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,909

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    if there is a real fairness ,you can get enough freedom
    Who determines what is fair and wouldn't those who disagree feel a loss of their freedom.

  7. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Everywhere and Nowhere
    Last Seen
    03-07-12 @ 03:28 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,692

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Freedom is fairness, if it's a virtue that is always deferred to first.

    I don't see how it boils down to these two things anyway.

  8. #18
    Sage
    Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Turkey
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    38,011

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Who determines what is fair and wouldn't those who disagree feel a loss of their freedom.

    our government is not fair and it tries to eliminate our freedoms and all priciples of our republic.

    or can you love somebody whom you dont trust and can you feel free with him ?

  9. #19
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    12-04-17 @ 04:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,186
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You raise some interesting points.

    I am pretty much center-right, perhaps I can expand on this a bit.

    This question can be construed as a false dichotomy, or as a mutually exclusive choice, but I don't think either of those views is entirely correct.... just like the question "freedom or order?" or "freedom or security?"

    A certain amount of one is necessary to the existence of the other... yet at the same time, taking either to an extreme tends to drastically reduce the other principle.

    For instance, let's say we had absolute freedom and absolute self-soveriegnty, and gov't only existed to secure the borders against outsiders and to punish those who INITIATED force or fraud against an innocent party (the nonaggression principle of libertarianism). Let's say there were no government services whatsoever, and the libertarian ideal of privatized-everything was the norm, including privatized cops.

    You'd be free. You'd be free to starve to death if you can't find a job, free to be victimized by whoever had more power than you if you couldn't afford to pay for cop/security services.... I suppose you'd be free to sell yourself into slavery if that was the only way not to starve to death. If you're mentally or physically limited and can't work and the church-sponsored homeless shelters are full I guess you're free to freeze to death on the street. Those who are best at accumulating capital will be free to accumulate it until they own everything in town and you either work for them or starve.

    Doesn't sound too good, eh?

    Let's try maximizing fairness. Everybody gets an equal share of the Gross Domestic Product. Everybody who is able gets a job of some kind, whatever they're suited for, makework if we can't find anything else you can do, but everybody gets paid the same. Everyone has the same access to healthcare or any other limited resource as everyone else.

    Well, what happens? There is no incentive to achieve or excel. There is no incentive to work extra hard or seek promotion. There is no incentive to go to college other than pride and status. Enterpreneurship and invention decline. Productivity declines. Pretty soon each person's share of the GDP starts to decline. Eventually we're all equally poor.

    Not too good either, eh?

    This is why a middle-of-the-road centrist approach makes more sense. Some entity (ie gov't) has to ensure that those with lots of power (ie corporations, capitalists, warlords) don't use that power to abuse and mistreat those with little power (ie Joe Workingdude) and that there's some reasonable effort to give everyone a fair opportunity to excel. At the same time, you need to maximize freedom within that context so that creativity and invention and enterpreneurship isn't stifled, and so that greater productivity has its incentives.

    I voted Freedom, because to me freedom is the sine-qua-non of life, but in truth we have to have a measure of fairness as well or freedom simply means the freedom to be abused by those with more power.
    This quote pretty much sums up my whole political philosophy.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #20
    Sage
    samsmart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,316
    Blog Entries
    37

    Re: Freedom Or Fairness

    I'm going to vote for "Freedom" because George Michael is absolutely fabulous!

    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •