View Poll Results: How Would You Vote?

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  • Without money, people have no hope.

    22 57.89%
  • Without hope of social justice, money has no use.

    14 36.84%
  • I have no idea but I think this is exactly what I'll have to decide.

    2 5.26%
  • I don't vote.

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Thread: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

  1. #111
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know what you're asking. Perhaps you could give an example.
    Do poor people have the opportunity to open their own businesses and thrive now, or is the current system set up to discourage or thwart them?

    or

    What's to prevent a poor person from being an entrepreneur? (Except maybe start-up money, which would be only a speed bump to a determined person, not a road block.)

  2. #112
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    There is equal opportunity, and in fact, likely more opportunity for those who come from backgrounds considered disadvantaged. There will never be true equality, because no two individuals are the same. Even if they had the same intelligence level and identical educational background, the differences in humans are too numerous to expect equality in outcomes. Pretend that you and I have equal intelligence and educations. You may be frugal by nature, invest your money well, and very successful, whereas I may be generous with my money and spend it on stuff that I just want to have, and end up penniless in my old age. The only thing that government can really guarantee is that the opportunities are there for those who are willing and able to pursue them.
    Of course...I admitted in the post you will always have some stratification unless you create some bottom that no one can rise above and at that point you're just holding everyone down.

    The thing is...when you look at the data of income mobility parental income is the leading predictor of a childs lifetime income. Granted...there are things the government can't do, how would you provide the advantage of a college educated parent for example. If opportunity was truly equal then parental income would not be a predictor. We talk about a classless society of opportunity but that's not what data shows. Data shows pretty drastic differences in opportunity.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  3. #113
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Do poor people have the opportunity to open their own businesses and thrive now, or is the current system set up to discourage or thwart them?

    or

    What's to prevent a poor person from being an entrepreneur? (Except maybe start-up money, which would be only a speed bump to a determined person, not a road block.)
    There really isn't a "current system" that we are dealing with. New start-ups have happened since the dawn of capitalism, and both poor and wealthy have started them. It's really not so much about systems as it is about creativity and understanding market demand, then meeting that demand.
    If you don't want to be a business owner or entrepreneur, then you can always go the route of determining what the future demands will be in various job sectors, then getting educated and/or experienced to fill a job that will likely remain in demand.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  4. #114
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Of If opportunity was truly equal then parental income would not be a predictor. We talk about a classless society of opportunity but that's not what data shows. Data shows pretty drastic differences in opportunity.
    It's more likely that parental income is not the predictor, and that parental attitudes and values are. As an example, I was born and raised in a poor environment relative to the standards of many Americans. Neither of my parents were college educated, and my father was a high school drop-out in the 10th grade. You might think that my childhood environment would have made me disadvantaged, but that wasn't the case at all. My father was a very industrious man who worked long hours to support his wife and 4 daughters. He was a man who could build or fix just about anything himself. He never had much money, but he was a really good, clean, decent, hard-working man. Those values were instilled in me. I was the first in my family with a college degree. When I was young, I looked at the potential job market, and I could see that there was a chronic nursing shortage. Therefore, I applied for nursing school, was accepted, and have worked in that profession for almost 30 years. I will never be wealthy, but I am able to meet my needs and have a little left over for things that I enjoy doing. My work ethic is very strong, and I managed to have foresight to secure my job future.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  5. #115
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Why not Ron Paul? I challenge you to find a candidate that supports individual rights, such as the right to be gay, more than he does. I find it baffling that you would ever vote for someone like Santorum who openly admits that people like you are the work of satan.
    I like a LOT of things about Ron Paul. There are a few things though that make it impossible for me to support him in this election.

    1) While I support a mainly non-interventionist type of foreign policy, I believe there are circumstances in which intervention (not humanitarian aid, but interventions that protect, preserve, and further American security and economic interests) are sometimes necessary. For example, protecting trade routes waterways in the middle east from countries like Iran. I do not believe Paul would support intervention in that circumstance. I think a hands off approach to foreign policy (while his would certainly be better than the current president, whose solution to losing a top secret drone to a hostile foreign government was to ask "pretty please, can I have it back?") provides opportunity for America's enemies.

    2) Borders/Immigration. While I certainly don't support a fence, I support strict control of the borders for security (among other) reasons. Paul doesn't seem to be supportive of strict border control.

    3) In this election, Paul can not win. That will be clear to him pretty soon, I think. We need the candidate with the best chance of beating Obama. Frankly, I am afraid if Paul got enough of a share of the votes in the primary, he would come into the general election as a third party candidate. This would be disastrous as it would dilute the GOP votes. Liberals would vote for Obama. Independents, Moderates, Centrists, Libertarians and Conservatives would be split between the GOP nominee and Ron Paul. Just like Ross Perot was the conduit to Clinton's election in '92, Ron Paul would, as a third party candidate, be the conduit through which Obama secures reelection.

  6. #116
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    I think the answer lies somewhere in this:

    Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?-9b0db59874cc7c1cc97abd52402520fe-png

    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  7. #117
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I would rather live in a MORAL third-world nation than in an IMMORAL first-world nation.

    so youd rather live in a nonfree country thant a free one? got it

    because since YOUR morals are SUBJECTIVE to YOU a country that matched your morals and your morals only could never be free
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  8. #118
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    so youd rather live in a nonfree country thant a free one? got it

    because since YOUR morals are SUBJECTIVE to YOU a country that matched your morals and your morals only could never be free

    To answer the OP it would depend on th economy and how much he was against equal gay rights.

    If he wanted to try and push laws to further discriminate against americans I have trouble voting for him and probably couldnt because even if he had good economic ideas it be hard to back anybody who was in favor of discrimination.
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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  9. #119
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    I would think that if you live by your conscience, the only answer would be "No--I wouldn't violate my conscience when I vote."

  10. #120
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    Re: Would You Vote Against Your Conscience For A Better Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    There really isn't a "current system" that we are dealing with. New start-ups have happened since the dawn of capitalism, and both poor and wealthy have started them. It's really not so much about systems as it is about creativity and understanding market demand, then meeting that demand.
    If you don't want to be a business owner or entrepreneur, then you can always go the route of determining what the future demands will be in various job sectors, then getting educated and/or experienced to fill a job that will likely remain in demand.
    Yes, I know. I was attempting to get the person I was responding to to address a particular aspect of one of his statements by considering it differently than they were.

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