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Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    Votes: 9 18.0%

  • I oppose forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    Votes: 34 68.0%

  • IDK/Other

    Votes: 7 14.0%
  • Total voters
    50
Jerry said:
Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic.
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I don't trust the source you have given and it doesn't cite any medical journals or other reputable evidence.

And when I was referring to death by self-induced pregnancies, I was mostly talking about worldly statistics. But we can see from the unintended consequences of parental notification laws that horrific in-home abortions do occur among younger teens.
 
ElijahGalt said:
Not true.
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Absolutely true.

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/2157/26/5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.

Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.
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An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

"Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."

Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortion performed by doctors in their clinic.

****
ElijahGalt said:
But that doesn't answer my question regarding personal rights and state investigations.
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Please re-state your question, I must have missed it.
 
Jerry said:
Absolutely true.





Out worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortion performed by doctors in their clinic.
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According to "physicians for life?"

Please re-state your question, I must have missed it.
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What is your SOLUTION to a rise in illegal, unsafe abortions? More draconian crime laws? What is your SOLUTION to the inevitable rise in self-induced miscarriages? Would you support a bureaucratic oversight structure to ensure women don't start aborting at home and reporting it (or not reporting it) as a miscarriage?
 
ElijahGalt said:
Killing and murder are two totally separate things. Killing animals for food is different than committing an unjustified act of murder (i.e. homicide). If you believe abortion is indeed murder, then what sense does it make to condone it on a national level simply because you don't wish to impose your anti-murder value system on others. I have yet to meet a reasonable person who despised the government's attempt to impose their anti-murder value system on society. It is an imposed value system. But one we all tolerate because we all generally agree that A) murder is fundamentally wrong and B) government needs to halt murders and punish murderers. Therefore, if you take the belief that abortion is murder, you then need to take the cause all the way to the top. Otherwise, your logic remains incoherent and your belief system appears foolish.
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The only difference between "killing" and "murder" is legality. I could call abortion murder until I am blue in the face and it still wouldn't detract from the fact that something was killed. I could do the same for animals.
 
Kal'Stang said:
The only difference between "killing" and "murder" is legality. I could call abortion murder until I am blue in the face and it still wouldn't detract from the fact that something was killed. I could do the same for animals.
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But I'm asking you flat out: do you consider abortion MURDER?
 
ElijahGalt said:
But I'm asking you flat out: do you consider abortion MURDER?
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Yes and no. That is not a question that can be simply answered with a yes or a no with a mind like mine. I consistantly think on two different levels that are equal. One part of me thinks yes it is MURDER. The other part says no because you can only murder a person and a zygote/embryo has not been proven to be a person.
 
Meat is murder.
 
ElijahGalt said:
What is your SOLUTION to a rise in illegal, unsafe abortions?
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Oh, yes we've had threads and threads on "what should the punishment be" etc. I'm quite suprised you haven't seen any of them.

Anyway, to reiterate what I say every time I'm asked:
The doctor, staff, and any other person "assisting in the performance of" an illegal abortion faces a Class 5 felony and permanent revocation of their license to practice. This includes the phisition himself on down to the individual who gave her a ride.

The woman herself is a victim, is therefore not charged with any crime, but is required to attend existing social services to address the core motivators behind the abortion: which is typically economic.
 
ElijahGalt said:
I don't trust the source you have given and it doesn't cite any medical journals or other reputable evidence.
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Here is some the reference material those links used to make their statements. Forum character limits prevent me from posting all of it:
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ElijahGalt said:
And when I was referring to death by self-induced pregnancies, I was mostly talking about worldly statistics.
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Crime, injury and duisease of every kind is always higher in undeveloped countries. I've seen this mistake in other forums as well, most notably gun control discussions. Please account for a region's economic health when making global generalizations.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Yes and no. That is not a question that can be simply answered with a yes or a no with a mind like mine. I consistantly think on two different levels that are equal. One part of me thinks yes it is MURDER. The other part says no because you can only murder a person and a zygote/embryo has not been proven to be a person.
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The second part has at least made a reasonable attempt to support the conviction, while the first part is just there- standing all by itself without any rational support mechanism. In matters of life and death, freedom and obstruction, health and wellness, we both better be damn sure before we push our reps to propose and sign bills into law. Maybe you should solidify your conviction and then come back to this thread.
 
ecofarm said:
Meat is murder.
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If you're a member of PETA, sure. But I don't see a carnivorous act of nature to be murder. And distinctions between murder and killing matter in this debate.
 
Jerry said:
Oh, yes we've had threads and threads on "what should the punishment be" etc. I'm quite suprised you haven't seen any of them.

Anyway, to reiterate what I say every time I'm asked:
The doctor, staff, and any other person "assisting in the performance of" an illegal abortion faces a Class 5 felony and permanent revocation of their license to practice. This includes the phisition himself on down to the individual who gave her a ride.

The woman herself is a victim, is therefore not charged with any crime, but is required to attend existing social services to address the core motivators behind the abortion: which is typically economic.
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I'm not surprised. Yet, as I said, if I were a pregnant woman intent on having an abortion living in your ideal world, I would do it as safely as possible within the privacy of my own home and then call my doctor to inform him I've just had a miscarriage. I'm sure that thought will cross the minds of many pregnant women who would then be forced to do it themselves. What then?

And it doesn't make sense that you would see the woman as a victim, when it is clearly her conscious choice to commit herself to an abortion. She's just as aware of the consequences as the doctor and maybe even more aware than her driver.
 
Jerry said:
Here is some the reference material those links used to make their statements. Forum character limits prevent me from posting all of it:




Crime, injury and duisease of every kind is always higher in undeveloped countries. I've seen this mistake in other forums as well, most notably gun control discussions. Please account for a region's economic health when making global generalizations.
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I have. It still doesn't deviate from the fact that many women will try it at home where they won't be faced with scrutinizing pressure from authorities. If it happens to kids in this country after passing parental notification laws, it will certainly happen to adults if you eliminate abortions altogether.
 
ElijahGalt said:
The second part has at least made a reasonable attempt to support the conviction, while the first part is just there- standing all by itself without any rational support mechanism. In matters of life and death, freedom and obstruction, health and wellness, we both better be damn sure before we push our reps to propose and sign bills into law. Maybe you should solidify your conviction and then come back to this thread.
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I have solidified it as much as is possible. I leave it to the individuals to make up thier own minds. IE I'm pro-choice.
 
ElijahGalt said:
I'm not surprised. Yet, as I said, if I were a pregnant woman intent on having an abortion living in your ideal world, I would do it as safely as possible within the privacy of my own home and then call my doctor to inform him I've just had a miscarriage. I'm sure that thought will cross the minds of many pregnant women who would then be forced to do it themselves. What then?
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If it were me, I wouldn't even try to hide it. I would straight out ask my doctor where I could get an abortion, if he 'knew a guy who knew a guy', to have it don my a licensed doctor in a clinic. He can't talk, because of doctor/patient confidentiality. He couldn't report me for smoking crack either. Same medical moral equivalent, same expectation of privacy.

ElijahGalt said:
And it doesn't make sense that you would see the woman as a victim, when it is clearly her conscious choice to commit herself to an abortion. She's just as aware of the consequences as the doctor and maybe even more aware than her driver.
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My position doesn't follow the logic you're framing me with. Pro-choice typically assumes that pro-life hates women and therefore will take out our emotions on anyone we can.

That assumption is false; based on your fears, not our intent.

***
I'm not saying abortion = suicide when I say abortion is like suicide in that what motivates a person to abortion is social-economic in nature. It's not necessarily how much cash she has in the bank, as it is her outlook on life, her attitude of where she is, what she wants to accomplish, and whether or not she can do it. I'm not saying abortion = drug addiction when I say like drug addictions and cutting, abortion is a symptom of the real problem, abortion doctors and staff take advantage of her for money, and when all is said and don she is no better off than she was before, meaning her root problems were not addressed.

In all practicality she would have been better off adopting out the child and completing Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover. At least then a lot of problems in her life would have been improved on.
 
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ElijahGalt said:
I have. It still doesn't deviate from the fact that many women will try it at home where they won't be faced with scrutinizing pressure from authorities.
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Those women will have their illegal abortions in clinics after hours, entering the office from the back, coin the phrase "back-ally abortions".

Outlaw most abortion and what you will have are a bunch of white women paying doctors more to get rid of the consequences of being irresponsible. You will not have a mob of poor black early teen rape victims from abused homes killing themselves wit a coat hanger in their own bedroom.
 
Jerry said:
Those women will have their illegal abortions in clinics after hours, entering the office from the back, coin the phrase "back-ally abortions".

Outlaw most abortion and what you will have are a bunch of white women paying doctors more to get rid of the consequences of being irresponsible. You will not have a mob of poor black early teen rape victims from abused homes killing themselves wit a coat hanger in their own bedroom.
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I never once mentioned race. Look up Becky Bell, Gerri Santoro, and the "baseball bat abortion." Race and income did not play any particular role in these cases, and two out of the three occurred after abortion became legal.

I do think that young teens are most at risk for performing their own at-home abortion either because they're embarrassed/afraid of confronting their parents and/or they don't realize they could find a doctor to perform it on the black market.

And you seem content with subjugating women's health under the moral laws of religious zealots, damn the consequences.
 
Jerry said:
If it were me, I wouldn't even try to hide it. I would straight out ask my doctor where I could get an abortion, if he 'knew a guy who knew a guy', to have it don my a licensed doctor in a clinic. He can't talk, because of doctor/patient confidentiality. He couldn't report me for smoking crack either. Same medical moral equivalent, same expectation of privacy.
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Did you just change your mind? Perhaps one or two pages ago, you explicitly said that any killing should be rightly investigated by the authorities. Therefore, any attempt, whether successful or not, to procure an abortion- an illegal homicide- should (by your logic) be investigated by the police. Attempted murder is illegal, and therefore doctor shopping for an illegal abortion is attempted murder. As you know, there are plenty of cases where doctor confidentiality is reversed, especially child abuse and other violent crimes. If you find abortion = murder, then it therefore should qualify (again, according to your logic) to a full out investigation by authorities.

And if we come back to the scenario of investigating a miscarriage, are you really content with just leaving it to a five-minute interview by a paper pusher? Don't you see how laxness of that kind of investigation? In order to really get to the bottom of a miscarriage- to really discover the cause- you have to fully examine the woman. A simple five minute questionnaire will no doubt lead many to induce their own miscarriage because they know they won't be subject to any real investigation.

And if we're talking about murder, you should really be concerned that each and every case of murder, attempted murder, and possible murder is fully and thoroughly investigated by the authorities.


My position doesn't follow the logic you're framing me with. Pro-choice typically assumes that pro-life hates women and therefore will take out our emotions on anyone we can.

That assumption is false; based on your fears, not our intent.

***
I'm not saying abortion = suicide when I say abortion is like suicide in that what motivates a person to abortion is social-economic in nature. It's not necessarily how much cash she has in the bank, as it is her outlook on life, her attitude of where she is, what she wants to accomplish, and whether or not she can do it. I'm not saying abortion = drug addiction when I say like drug addictions and cutting, abortion is a symptom of the real problem, abortion doctors and staff take advantage of her for money, and when all is said and don she is no better off than she was before, meaning her root problems were not addressed.

In all practicality she would have been better off adopting out the child and completing Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover. At least then a lot of problems in her life would have been improved on.
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I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.
 
ElijahGalt said:
Did you just change your mind? Perhaps one or two pages ago, you explicitly said that any killing should be rightly investigated by the authorities. Therefore, any attempt, whether successful or not, to procure an abortion- an illegal homicide- should (by your logic) be investigated by the police. Attempted murder is illegal, and therefore doctor shopping for an illegal abortion is attempted murder. As you know, there are plenty of cases where doctor confidentiality is reversed, especially child abuse and other violent crimes. If you find abortion = murder, then it therefore should qualify (again, according to your logic) to a full out investigation by authorities.

And if we come back to the scenario of investigating a miscarriage, are you really content with just leaving it to a five-minute interview by a paper pusher? Don't you see how laxness of that kind of investigation? In order to really get to the bottom of a miscarriage- to really discover the cause- you have to fully examine the woman. A simple five minute questionnaire will no doubt lead many to induce their own miscarriage because they know they won't be subject to any real investigation.

And if we're talking about murder, you should really be concerned that each and every case of murder, attempted murder, and possible murder is fully and thoroughly investigated by the authorities.

I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.
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In my example with NY, they were confirming this was not a late-term abortion. At no point prior to birth does the state of NY consider a ZEF a "person" in the eyes of the law, yet investigations are under way regardless, so stop worrying about them.

***
I'm not aware that I'm in a movement. I'm just a guy with an opinion on the topic.

I proffer 'anti-abortion rights' to "pro-life", because I'm not very pro life on other issues such as capitol punishment. Oh well.
 
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ElijahGalt said:
I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.
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Do you base this assertion off some kind of actual statistics or just deciding to determine what the majority of the movement feels on your own opinion?
 
ElijahGalt said:
I never once mentioned race. Look up Becky Bell, Gerri Santoro, and the "baseball bat abortion." Race and income did not play any particular role in these cases, and two out of the three occurred after abortion became legal.

I do think that young teens are most at risk for performing their own at-home abortion either because they're embarrassed/afraid of confronting their parents and/or they don't realize they could find a doctor to perform it on the black market.

And you seem content with subjugating women's health under the moral laws of religious zealots, damn the consequences.
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Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion. :roll:

.
 
TOJ said:
Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion. :roll:

.
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While I may or may not be a religious zealot, I was also unware of this... The jury still out on the zealot part though I think there are some people on this forum that are starting to believe I am:shock:
 
Jerry said:
In my example with NY, they were confirming this was not a late-term abortion. At no point prior to birth does the state of NY consider a ZEF a "person" in the eyes of the law, yet investigations are under way regardless, so stop worrying about them.
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I can't, because you haven't fully addressed the issue. Obviously, you wish to stop abortions. And I would assume you wish to stop as many abortions as possible, even illegal ones. Therefore, you HAVE to confront the fact that the majority of miscarriages take place outside a hospital and most miscarriages before 10 weeks do not even require medical attention. THEREFORE, what is your solution to the matter of private in-home abortions done under the guise of a spontaneous miscarriage?

I'm not aware that I'm in a movement. I'm just a guy with an opinion on the topic.
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Yea, a guy who believes abortion is murder but in this particular case, the murderer is treated rather than punished. It's not like she's suffering from some mental illness that could render her not guilty by reason of insanity. No, we're talking about sane women who consciously make the pre-meditated decision to murder babies (something prosecutors in many states would fight for the death penalty) and all you demand is treatment, not punishment.

I proffer 'anti-abortion rights' to "pro-life", because I'm not very pro life on other issues such as capitol punishment. Oh well.
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Well, I commend you for that at least. You're not a hypocrite (though your logic still remains inconsistent).
 
Zyphlin said:
Do you base this assertion off some kind of actual statistics or just deciding to determine what the majority of the movement feels on your own opinion?
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I haven't seen any statistics. But it is the views of the majority of posters I have read on this forum, and it is also a logical conclusion to the issue of punishing baby-killing murderers. Honestly, what sense does it make to demand the outlawing of abortion while simultaneously not demanding criminal charges be filed against the woman? The only reason abortion is opposed (to my knowledge) is because some people view it as murder. If you view it as murder and the victim of such murders are babies (I'll use a popular term used by pro-lifers to refer to ZEFs), then shouldn't the punishment be the harshest of any murder case?
 
TOJ said:
Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion. :roll:

.
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Not all. But certainly the majority. Do a quick search of pro-life organizations on Google. How many are religious-based? How many are secular?
 
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