View Poll Results: Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

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  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    12 19.35%
  • I oppose forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    43 69.35%
  • IDK/Other

    7 11.29%
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Thread: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

  1. #191
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I have. It still doesn't deviate from the fact that many women will try it at home where they won't be faced with scrutinizing pressure from authorities.
    Those women will have their illegal abortions in clinics after hours, entering the office from the back, coin the phrase "back-ally abortions".

    Outlaw most abortion and what you will have are a bunch of white women paying doctors more to get rid of the consequences of being irresponsible. You will not have a mob of poor black early teen rape victims from abused homes killing themselves wit a coat hanger in their own bedroom.

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Those women will have their illegal abortions in clinics after hours, entering the office from the back, coin the phrase "back-ally abortions".

    Outlaw most abortion and what you will have are a bunch of white women paying doctors more to get rid of the consequences of being irresponsible. You will not have a mob of poor black early teen rape victims from abused homes killing themselves wit a coat hanger in their own bedroom.
    I never once mentioned race. Look up Becky Bell, Gerri Santoro, and the "baseball bat abortion." Race and income did not play any particular role in these cases, and two out of the three occurred after abortion became legal.

    I do think that young teens are most at risk for performing their own at-home abortion either because they're embarrassed/afraid of confronting their parents and/or they don't realize they could find a doctor to perform it on the black market.

    And you seem content with subjugating women's health under the moral laws of religious zealots, damn the consequences.

  3. #193
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If it were me, I wouldn't even try to hide it. I would straight out ask my doctor where I could get an abortion, if he 'knew a guy who knew a guy', to have it don my a licensed doctor in a clinic. He can't talk, because of doctor/patient confidentiality. He couldn't report me for smoking crack either. Same medical moral equivalent, same expectation of privacy.
    Did you just change your mind? Perhaps one or two pages ago, you explicitly said that any killing should be rightly investigated by the authorities. Therefore, any attempt, whether successful or not, to procure an abortion- an illegal homicide- should (by your logic) be investigated by the police. Attempted murder is illegal, and therefore doctor shopping for an illegal abortion is attempted murder. As you know, there are plenty of cases where doctor confidentiality is reversed, especially child abuse and other violent crimes. If you find abortion = murder, then it therefore should qualify (again, according to your logic) to a full out investigation by authorities.

    And if we come back to the scenario of investigating a miscarriage, are you really content with just leaving it to a five-minute interview by a paper pusher? Don't you see how laxness of that kind of investigation? In order to really get to the bottom of a miscarriage- to really discover the cause- you have to fully examine the woman. A simple five minute questionnaire will no doubt lead many to induce their own miscarriage because they know they won't be subject to any real investigation.

    And if we're talking about murder, you should really be concerned that each and every case of murder, attempted murder, and possible murder is fully and thoroughly investigated by the authorities.


    My position doesn't follow the logic you're framing me with. Pro-choice typically assumes that pro-life hates women and therefore will take out our emotions on anyone we can.

    That assumption is false; based on your fears, not our intent.

    ***
    I'm not saying abortion = suicide when I say abortion is like suicide in that what motivates a person to abortion is social-economic in nature. It's not necessarily how much cash she has in the bank, as it is her outlook on life, her attitude of where she is, what she wants to accomplish, and whether or not she can do it. I'm not saying abortion = drug addiction when I say like drug addictions and cutting, abortion is a symptom of the real problem, abortion doctors and staff take advantage of her for money, and when all is said and don she is no better off than she was before, meaning her root problems were not addressed.

    In all practicality she would have been better off adopting out the child and completing Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover. At least then a lot of problems in her life would have been improved on.
    I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Did you just change your mind? Perhaps one or two pages ago, you explicitly said that any killing should be rightly investigated by the authorities. Therefore, any attempt, whether successful or not, to procure an abortion- an illegal homicide- should (by your logic) be investigated by the police. Attempted murder is illegal, and therefore doctor shopping for an illegal abortion is attempted murder. As you know, there are plenty of cases where doctor confidentiality is reversed, especially child abuse and other violent crimes. If you find abortion = murder, then it therefore should qualify (again, according to your logic) to a full out investigation by authorities.

    And if we come back to the scenario of investigating a miscarriage, are you really content with just leaving it to a five-minute interview by a paper pusher? Don't you see how laxness of that kind of investigation? In order to really get to the bottom of a miscarriage- to really discover the cause- you have to fully examine the woman. A simple five minute questionnaire will no doubt lead many to induce their own miscarriage because they know they won't be subject to any real investigation.

    And if we're talking about murder, you should really be concerned that each and every case of murder, attempted murder, and possible murder is fully and thoroughly investigated by the authorities.

    I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.
    In my example with NY, they were confirming this was not a late-term abortion. At no point prior to birth does the state of NY consider a ZEF a "person" in the eyes of the law, yet investigations are under way regardless, so stop worrying about them.

    ***
    I'm not aware that I'm in a movement. I'm just a guy with an opinion on the topic.

    I proffer 'anti-abortion rights' to "pro-life", because I'm not very pro life on other issues such as capitol punishment. Oh well.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-09-12 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #195
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I never assumed you "hate" women. But it is a safe bet to assume you would have considered criminal punishment for the woman who has an abortion, given that is the norm among the pro-life movement. You, my friend, are the minority within your own movement who believes the woman (a murderer) should be treated and not punished.
    Do you base this assertion off some kind of actual statistics or just deciding to determine what the majority of the movement feels on your own opinion?

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I never once mentioned race. Look up Becky Bell, Gerri Santoro, and the "baseball bat abortion." Race and income did not play any particular role in these cases, and two out of the three occurred after abortion became legal.

    I do think that young teens are most at risk for performing their own at-home abortion either because they're embarrassed/afraid of confronting their parents and/or they don't realize they could find a doctor to perform it on the black market.

    And you seem content with subjugating women's health under the moral laws of religious zealots, damn the consequences.
    Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion.

    .

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion.

    .
    While I may or may not be a religious zealot, I was also unware of this... The jury still out on the zealot part though I think there are some people on this forum that are starting to believe I am

  8. #198
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In my example with NY, they were confirming this was not a late-term abortion. At no point prior to birth does the state of NY consider a ZEF a "person" in the eyes of the law, yet investigations are under way regardless, so stop worrying about them.
    I can't, because you haven't fully addressed the issue. Obviously, you wish to stop abortions. And I would assume you wish to stop as many abortions as possible, even illegal ones. Therefore, you HAVE to confront the fact that the majority of miscarriages take place outside a hospital and most miscarriages before 10 weeks do not even require medical attention. THEREFORE, what is your solution to the matter of private in-home abortions done under the guise of a spontaneous miscarriage?

    I'm not aware that I'm in a movement. I'm just a guy with an opinion on the topic.
    Yea, a guy who believes abortion is murder but in this particular case, the murderer is treated rather than punished. It's not like she's suffering from some mental illness that could render her not guilty by reason of insanity. No, we're talking about sane women who consciously make the pre-meditated decision to murder babies (something prosecutors in many states would fight for the death penalty) and all you demand is treatment, not punishment.

    I proffer 'anti-abortion rights' to "pro-life", because I'm not very pro life on other issues such as capitol punishment. Oh well.
    Well, I commend you for that at least. You're not a hypocrite (though your logic still remains inconsistent).

  9. #199
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you base this assertion off some kind of actual statistics or just deciding to determine what the majority of the movement feels on your own opinion?
    I haven't seen any statistics. But it is the views of the majority of posters I have read on this forum, and it is also a logical conclusion to the issue of punishing baby-killing murderers. Honestly, what sense does it make to demand the outlawing of abortion while simultaneously not demanding criminal charges be filed against the woman? The only reason abortion is opposed (to my knowledge) is because some people view it as murder. If you view it as murder and the victim of such murders are babies (I'll use a popular term used by pro-lifers to refer to ZEFs), then shouldn't the punishment be the harshest of any murder case?

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Wow, I did not know that only religious zealots favored murder/killing being illegal in most cases. I also did not realize that only religious zealots were anti-abortion.

    .
    Not all. But certainly the majority. Do a quick search of pro-life organizations on Google. How many are religious-based? How many are secular?

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