View Poll Results: Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

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  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    12 19.35%
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    43 69.35%
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    7 11.29%
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Thread: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

  1. #171
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Are you being sarcastic? I was almost quoting word for word a medical paper. I'm not arguing women shouldn't go to the hospital if a miscarriage takes place. I'm only predicting the outcome of an abortion ban that will inevitably see a rise in private in-home abortions that publicly will be recorded as miscarriages. As you probably know, once the public gets word of a sudden rise in tragedies, disasters, or crimes, they usually demand congress pass some sort of law to address the issue. Regulation is inevitable in this case. We ban abortion. Suddenly, women who want to terminate their pregnancy do so in the privacy of their own home and as a result, the instances of "miscarriages" unexpectedly rises. The public wants an investigation and after a couple years, probes indicate the miscarriages are actually abortions. Congress now passes a new place making it illegal to give birth at home and/or miscarry without informing the authorities. There will also likely be provisions within that new bill calling for full medical examinations and possible criminal investigations (I doubt your wife faced a criminal investigation) for each and every woman who miscarries. At that point we can go to the National Archives, remove the constitution, and burn it.
    5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

    Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


    Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

    The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.
    An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

    The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

    "Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."


    Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic.

  2. #172
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.
    Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic, as sourced.

  3. #173
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    In the case of abortion it does make sense since the personhood of a zygote/embryo is what is at question. See I have no problem with the killing of animals for food or to just "thin the flock" so to speak because they are not "persons". As such the same would apply to a zygote/embryo if they are truely not persons. There is no science that can prove this one way or the other so at least for now it must be left up to the individual person's beliefs in the matter. Forcing a person to believe something that may or may not be true is imo like forcing a person to believe in a religious god that may or may not exist.
    Killing and murder are two totally separate things. Killing animals for food is different than committing an unjustified act of murder (i.e. homicide). If you believe abortion is indeed murder, then what sense does it make to condone it on a national level simply because you don't wish to impose your anti-murder value system on others. I have yet to meet a reasonable person who despised the government's attempt to impose their anti-murder value system on society. It is an imposed value system. But one we all tolerate because we all generally agree that A) murder is fundamentally wrong and B) government needs to halt murders and punish murderers. Therefore, if you take the belief that abortion is murder, you then need to take the cause all the way to the top. Otherwise, your logic remains incoherent and your belief system appears foolish.

  4. #174
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic, as sourced.
    Not true. Certainly there will be doctors willing to break the law. But it will be much more risky for women to seek the help of a doctor who may or may not report her to the authorities. In this country, it may be true that the majority of illegal abortions will take place in clinics because the infrastructure has already been built over the years. But that doesn't answer my question regarding personal rights and state investigations.

  5. #175
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

    However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

    Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

    The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

    That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

    Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

    For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.
    Your typical abortion patient is a married white christian woman in her 20s with at least one existing child, not poor black young teens as you claim.

    Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

  6. #176
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic.
    I don't trust the source you have given and it doesn't cite any medical journals or other reputable evidence.

    And when I was referring to death by self-induced pregnancies, I was mostly talking about worldly statistics. But we can see from the unintended consequences of parental notification laws that horrific in-home abortions do occur among younger teens.

  7. #177
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Not true.
    Absolutely true.

    5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

    Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


    Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

    The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.
    An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

    The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

    "Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."

    Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortion performed by doctors in their clinic.

    ****
    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    But that doesn't answer my question regarding personal rights and state investigations.
    Please re-state your question, I must have missed it.

  8. #178
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Absolutely true.





    Out worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortion performed by doctors in their clinic.
    According to "physicians for life?"


    Please re-state your question, I must have missed it.
    What is your SOLUTION to a rise in illegal, unsafe abortions? More draconian crime laws? What is your SOLUTION to the inevitable rise in self-induced miscarriages? Would you support a bureaucratic oversight structure to ensure women don't start aborting at home and reporting it (or not reporting it) as a miscarriage?

  9. #179
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Killing and murder are two totally separate things. Killing animals for food is different than committing an unjustified act of murder (i.e. homicide). If you believe abortion is indeed murder, then what sense does it make to condone it on a national level simply because you don't wish to impose your anti-murder value system on others. I have yet to meet a reasonable person who despised the government's attempt to impose their anti-murder value system on society. It is an imposed value system. But one we all tolerate because we all generally agree that A) murder is fundamentally wrong and B) government needs to halt murders and punish murderers. Therefore, if you take the belief that abortion is murder, you then need to take the cause all the way to the top. Otherwise, your logic remains incoherent and your belief system appears foolish.
    The only difference between "killing" and "murder" is legality. I could call abortion murder until I am blue in the face and it still wouldn't detract from the fact that something was killed. I could do the same for animals.
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  10. #180
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The only difference between "killing" and "murder" is legality. I could call abortion murder until I am blue in the face and it still wouldn't detract from the fact that something was killed. I could do the same for animals.
    But I'm asking you flat out: do you consider abortion MURDER?

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