View Poll Results: Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

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  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    12 19.35%
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    43 69.35%
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Thread: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

  1. #151
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You're the only person in the world claiming criminal charges or a trial are involved.

    It's a clerk who looks at paperwork. That's it. That's the "investigation". You're stressing about 1 pencil-pusher taking about an hour to look at a few forms. It's beyond trivial.
    Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.

  2. #152
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.
    Wasn't abortion illegal in the USA for a long time? Did the aurthorities monitor every pregnancy for nine months then?

    .

  3. #153
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Wasn't abortion illegal in the USA for a long time? Did the aurthorities monitor every pregnancy for nine months then?

    .
    Not that I'm aware of. But there were many highly publicized cases of unsafe abortions. Virtually half of all abortions worldwide are illegal, unsafe abortions. According to Wikipedia, one in eight pregnancy-related deaths worldwide are a result of an unsafe abortion. In the future case of banning abortion, the public is likely to face two scenarios. Either a rise in unsafe abortions and abortion-related deaths will take place and nothing will be done about it, or the public will demand something be done about it. If the public demands congressional action, laws will likely be passed that further intrude on a woman's personal freedom.

    As for the miscarriage argument, I'm looking at it as if it were me. If I was a pregnant woman in a country that banned abortion and I was still intent to have the abortion in the privacy of my home, I would do so illegally and claim it was a miscarriage. A miscarriage is not illegal but without proper oversight and investigation, it can be deceptively used as a ploy to evade abortion-related criminal charges.

  4. #154
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.
    Reality like your message brings up usually is just disregarded. But you're right on point.

  5. #155
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Not that I'm aware of. But there were many highly publicized cases of unsafe abortions. Virtually half of all abortions worldwide are illegal, unsafe abortions. According to Wikipedia, one in eight pregnancy-related deaths worldwide are a result of an unsafe abortion. In the future case of banning abortion, the public is likely to face two scenarios. Either a rise in unsafe abortions and abortion-related deaths will take place and nothing will be done about it, or the public will demand something be done about it. If the public demands congressional action, laws will likely be passed that further intrude on a woman's personal freedom.

    As for the miscarriage argument, I'm looking at it as if it were me. If I was a pregnant woman in a country that banned abortion and I was still intent to have the abortion in the privacy of my home, I would do so illegally and claim it was a miscarriage. A miscarriage is not illegal but without proper oversight and investigation, it can be deceptively used as a ploy to evade abortion-related criminal charges.
    Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

    However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

    Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

    The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

    That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

    Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

    For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.
    Last edited by joko104; 02-08-12 at 03:10 PM.

  6. #156
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

    However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

    Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

    The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

    That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

    Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

    For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.
    This is also the reason why I oppose parental consent for an abortion. It inevitably leads young teens to do terrible things to avoid embarrassment and punishment.

    The hypocrisy of the religious right is outstanding. It reminds me of this clip from the TV show Frasier (I could only find it in Spanish, but I've provided the English translation)



    "Boy, things have really changed since my day. Back then, if a girl got in trouble, her family would send her away to relatives in another state, and if anybody asked, just lied and said she went to Europe. Then when she came back, they'd raise the baby as a little sister. Not like today — we had morals and values back then."

  7. #157
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

    And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

    And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.
    You sound confused. Are you playing devil's advocate in order to solidify your own convictions?

  9. #159
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

    And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.
    The second is one of the reasons I am probably some version of "pro choice".

    On a personal level, I'm opposed to abortions unless the life of the mother is in danger - but at the same time, I know that for myriad reasons, it would be unreasonable to try making that law...

    So I figure, let others make their own moral calls on the question, however much I dislike the one option. Thus…pro choice, in a way.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    You sound confused. Are you playing devil's advocate in order to solidify your own convictions?
    I'm ambivalent.

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