View Poll Results: Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

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  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    12 19.35%
  • I oppose forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    43 69.35%
  • IDK/Other

    7 11.29%
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Thread: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

  1. #101
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Read his post. He said an organism + human DNA = "A human being"

    He failed to realize a sperm is a living organism with human DNA.
    That may be true, but sperm cells do not divide, and they have a limited life span. I don't think a sperm cell, like a skin cell, can be called an organism.

    Perhaps he meant the zygote, which is the beginning of the developing human.

  2. #102
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    A developing human, imo.

    A good question would be to try and define when the unborn can be deemed a "child."

    Then again, perhaps we should not let size blind us to what it is, and what it will become if not hindered.
    Well, lets get specific here.

    When using invetro, the lab will try to fertilized more than one egg given there are only low odds of success at fertilization, and essentially always leaving fertilized embryos that will not and cannot be used. Getting one-egg-at-a time isn't really viable medical procedure. Now will they use obviously defective embryos.

    Of those even used, it is known it likely only 1, if any, implanted will "take" to her uterus. This process is done with the woman's/parents permission. So in their desires to have a child they are creating a dozen or more fertilized embryos knowing that all but 1 will likely "die" and it maybe only a long shot that even 1 will.

    So, by what you all are writing, those wanna-be parents and that lab murdered a dozen children. Their attempt to have a child really is mass murdering their children.

    That is your claim, correct? They are murders of their own children. Mass murders in fact. Right? Couples who use invetro desperately wanting a child are in fact, according to you, really just the worse mass murders of children in the world by your morality/belief.
    Last edited by joko104; 02-06-12 at 03:23 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The investigation would determine the nature of the homicide, yes. Abortions performed in hospitals in countries such as Brazil which have very strict abortion laws are short and sweet, a simple matter of a civil rep. looking over some paperwork.
    Paperwork? You mean the medical records which are protected under the privacy clause of the 4th Amendment? Brazil doesn't have a Bill of Rights, nor are they a developed country. I'm not looking to emulate other countries in this debate.



    Trial?

    I think you've been watching to much CSI.

    Investigation =/= trial.
    There's a thing called a slash and it is used in the English language as a substitute for "or."

    Yes a miscarriage should be investigated. Of course it should. You think this doesn't already happen today? When my wife had a miscarrage in NY in 2002, the state automaticaly performed an investigation to determin the age of the ZEF. As it was under the cut-off for abortion, the state did not continue it's investigation to determine the cause.

    Trial. Pft whatever. There's no trial. It's a designated medical professional looking over paperwork. My wife and I were asked a few questions, it took about 5 minutes, if that.
    Wow. No offense, but under your proposal one of two things will have to happen. Either we can maintain lax investigative procedures such as the one which faced your wife (and in which case, there will definitely be a sudden increase in the number of "miscarriages" across the country), or we can impose more intrusive investigative procedures that look at more than just paperwork. How would you like it if your wife was subjected to a cavity search in order to rule out a self-induced abortion?

  4. #104
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    That may be true, but sperm cells do not divide, and they have a limited life span. I don't think a sperm cell, like a skin cell, can be called an organism.

    Perhaps he meant the zygote, which is the beginning of the developing human.
    I'm just responding to his statement.

  5. #105
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Yes, it is.


    1234567890
    I am forced to assume "Jerry" is not quite who he pretends to be...as the odds of me ever running into an individual this incapable of functional logic, average societal understanding, and basic cognitive ability are likely astronomical in proportion.

    Thus I have developed a theory..."Jerry" is an exceptional gamer, and though I am hesitant to state it....he should continue.

    I personally would prefer an illusion of this unfortunate aspect of our little experiment Life), than wondering if I am actually in contact with it.

  6. #106
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The simple fact that sperm can not divide or reproduce tells you that they are not an organism.
    or·gan·ism   [awr-guh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    a form of life composed of mutually interdependent parts that maintain various vital processes.

    Where do you see "cell division?"

  7. #107
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    (1) No, he didn't. But he is false in claiming that human development begins with a fertilized egg. It begins with the development of the sperm and the female egg.

    (2) Oh, that's right, sperm and eggs aren't required. The FIRST step in form a child is when the stork implants a zygote in the woman. THAT is how a new life FIRST begins. Or so he claims. And that's absurd.

    (3) EVERY time a pregnancy is avoided, the unthinkable prevention of a child being born occurs. How can you so hate children as to prevent their even having a chance of having a life? (rhetorical)

    (4) Lucky for him that his father wasn't such an evil man as to have used a condom. Otherwise Jerry wouldn't exist. His life potential DESTROYED! Pure evil if his father had done so. Or if her mother had been so rabid a baby hater as to be on the pill.

    (5) After "pro-life" and religions FINALLY lost that argument with almost everyone, they just redefined when life starts. It NO LONGER starts with sperm and eggs. They don't exist anymore and have NOTHING to do with the origins of human life and babies according to them. NOW the first step is a fertilized embryo. Never mind that contraceptions stop 1000+ times more babies have a right to exist than abortions.

    (6) So this isn't about babies having a right to exist. Not since contraceptives were dropped from the debate.

    (7) There is now the candidate Santorum that has reverted to the contraceptions are wrong and should be prevented including by government. At least he has some integrity in his "ideology on behalf of babies right to come into this world."
    (1) What do you mean human life begins with the development of sperm and the female egg? Jerry did not claim that. He did not say the sperm is a human being.

    (2) Human life begins when sperm enters the egg, and the zygote is created. Do you disagree with that?

    (3) You're assuming Jerry has said the sperm or the egg itself are human beings/developing human beings.

    (4) *Sigh* Again, Jerry did not say that.

    (5) Whatever point you think you're making, it's scientific fact that sperm + egg = zygote. The zygote is the very beginning of the life of a developing human.

    (6) Which has no bearing on the issue because Jerry never said sperm = developing human.

    (7) What Santorum does does not affect me or my views.

  8. #108
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Well, lets get specific here.

    When using invetro, the lab will try to fertilized more than one egg given there are only low odds of success at fertilization, and essentially always leaving fertilized embryos that will not and cannot be used. Getting one-egg-at-a time isn't really viable medical procedure. Now will they use obviously defective embryos.

    Of those even used, it is known it likely only 1, if any, implanted will "take" to her uterus. This process is done with the woman's/parents permission. So in their desires to have a child they are creating a dozen or more fertilized embryos knowing that all but 1 will likely "die" and it maybe only a long shot that even 1 will.

    So, by what you all are writing, those wanna-be parents and that lab murdered a dozen children. Their attempt to have a child really is mass murdering their children.

    That is your claim, correct? They are murders of their own children. Mass murders in fact. Right? Couples who use invetro are, according to you, the worse mass murders of children in the world by your morality/belief.
    You say mass murder, but I see it as killing.

    If the zygote does not stick to her womb, that is neither killing nor wrong. That there are many fertilized zygotes that will never have the chance to continue their natural development is saddening. I don't let size change my view of its importance. Perhaps we don't know what we are doing, when we do such things to acheive a certain goal.

  9. #109
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    You say mass murder, but I see it as killing.

    If the zygote does not stick to her womb, that is neither killing nor wrong. That there are many fertilized zygotes that will never have the chance to continue their natural development is saddening. I don't let size change my view of its importance. Perhaps we don't know what we are doing, when we do such things to acheive a certain goal.
    I think this whole debate revolves around "Individual Reality", as we are all individual with brains. What your sister thinks is not what you do...obviously. What your Dad considers true, might not be true to you...this a real, and pertinent.

    Some people will see a Zygote as a living human being...others as a grouping of cells in a state of multiplication. Both can be correct in individual reality.

    Thus, logically this debate becomes very personalized. How do you communicate constructively in this situation?

  10. #110
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    Re: Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    I think this whole debate revolves around "Individual Reality", as we are all individual with brains. What your sister thinks is not what you do...obviously. What your Dad considers true, might not be true to you...this a real, and pertinent.

    Some people will see a Zygote as a living human being...others as a grouping of cells in a state of multiplication. Both can be correct in individual reality.

    Thus, logically this debate becomes very personalized. How do you communicate constructively in this situation?
    Well, scientifically, we know that when sperm meets egg, the zygote is created. According to science, the human has a beginning. Sort of like how the oak has a beginning. The zygote is the very beginning of the developing human, as the seed is the very beginning of the oak. The zygote is not a human being, but the very beginning. The same is true for the seed and the oak. Science shows that the zygote is the initial state of human development, so I don't see why some argue that scientific fact.

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