Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

Which is more important?

Substantive justice - the realization of proper results
Procedural justice - the realization of proper process

Which of the following are you?

Pragmatist - realizing simple explanation
Idealist - realizing complete explanation

Daktoria said:

Which is more important?

Substantive justice - the realization of proper results
Procedural justice - the realization of proper process

Which of the following are you?

Pragmatist - realizing simple explanation
Idealist - realizing complete explanation

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As long as substantive justice is achieved through procedural justice, I'll pick that one. (I don't get the pragmatist/idealist bit.)

All of them are interrelated. Justice without procedures won't consistently produce substantive results, as lynch mobs demonstrate. One can't realize their ideals without being aware of the obstacles posed by reality and human nature and the practical methods necessary to overcome them, as political ideologies in any age demonstrate.

Kind of like how time and space don't exist as separate physical entities, as was commonly thought in Newtonian mechanics, but exist as an interrelation (the space-time continuum).

But for the sake of semantics, I'll say I value substantive justice and ideals more than procedure and practicality because achieving real justice and having authentic beliefs is more of a goal in and of itself than being procedure orientated and practical. But again, you are extremely unlikely to encounter real justice in a civilization without protocol and practicality.

Imo, substantive justice is the goal, and unfortunately, proper process can't guarantee that. I'm pragmatic by nature, so laws written in black and white, and administered fairly and extremely consistently, are the best way to go.

lizzie said:

Imo, substantive justice is the goal, and unfortunately, proper process can't guarantee that. I'm pragmatic by nature, so laws written in black and white, and administered fairly and extremely consistently, are the best way to go.

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Substance is the goal, but the question is whether or not justice is substance.

I'm not saying that to be dry. Everyone is pragmatic by nature. Literally, nature is concrete, and pragmatism is about presuming concrete effects.

The question is whether or not justice lays in the concrete or abstract. How can we find justice in nature?

Procedural and pragmatic.

A good justice system has enough procedure to make expectations clear and ensure uniform treatment while also allowing some subjective value judgements specific to the circumstances. Making trials dependent on procedure but sentencing handled by the judge is good balance.

Daktoria said:

Substance is the goal, but the question is whether or not justice is substance.

I'm not saying that to be dry. Everyone is pragmatic by nature. Literally, nature is concrete, and pragmatism is about presuming concrete effects.

The question is whether or not justice lays in the concrete or abstract. How can we find justice in nature?

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There already is justice in nature, it's just that most of us either can't see it, or don't like it.