View Poll Results: Which is more important and which are you?

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  • Substantive Justice, Pragmatist

    2 28.57%
  • Substantive Justice, Idealist

    2 28.57%
  • Procedural Justice, Pragmatist

    2 28.57%
  • Procedural Justice, Idealist

    1 14.29%
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Thread: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

  1. #1
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    Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Which is more important?

    Substantive justice - the realization of proper results
    Procedural justice - the realization of proper process

    Which of the following are you?

    Pragmatist - realizing simple explanation
    Idealist - realizing complete explanation

  2. #2
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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    Which is more important?

    Substantive justice - the realization of proper results
    Procedural justice - the realization of proper process

    Which of the following are you?

    Pragmatist - realizing simple explanation
    Idealist - realizing complete explanation
    As long as substantive justice is achieved through procedural justice, I'll pick that one. (I don't get the pragmatist/idealist bit.)
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #3
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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    All of them are interrelated. Justice without procedures won't consistently produce substantive results, as lynch mobs demonstrate. One can't realize their ideals without being aware of the obstacles posed by reality and human nature and the practical methods necessary to overcome them, as political ideologies in any age demonstrate.

    Kind of like how time and space don't exist as separate physical entities, as was commonly thought in Newtonian mechanics, but exist as an interrelation (the space-time continuum).

    But for the sake of semantics, I'll say I value substantive justice and ideals more than procedure and practicality because achieving real justice and having authentic beliefs is more of a goal in and of itself than being procedure orientated and practical. But again, you are extremely unlikely to encounter real justice in a civilization without protocol and practicality.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 01-30-12 at 05:34 PM.
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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Imo, substantive justice is the goal, and unfortunately, proper process can't guarantee that. I'm pragmatic by nature, so laws written in black and white, and administered fairly and extremely consistently, are the best way to go.
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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Imo, substantive justice is the goal, and unfortunately, proper process can't guarantee that. I'm pragmatic by nature, so laws written in black and white, and administered fairly and extremely consistently, are the best way to go.
    Substance is the goal, but the question is whether or not justice is substance.

    I'm not saying that to be dry. Everyone is pragmatic by nature. Literally, nature is concrete, and pragmatism is about presuming concrete effects.

    The question is whether or not justice lays in the concrete or abstract. How can we find justice in nature?

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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Procedural and pragmatic.

  7. #7
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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    A good justice system has enough procedure to make expectations clear and ensure uniform treatment while also allowing some subjective value judgements specific to the circumstances. Making trials dependent on procedure but sentencing handled by the judge is good balance.

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    Re: Substantive and Procedural Justice, Pragmatism and Idealism

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    Substance is the goal, but the question is whether or not justice is substance.

    I'm not saying that to be dry. Everyone is pragmatic by nature. Literally, nature is concrete, and pragmatism is about presuming concrete effects.

    The question is whether or not justice lays in the concrete or abstract. How can we find justice in nature?
    There already is justice in nature, it's just that most of us either can't see it, or don't like it.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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