View Poll Results: What is GITMO about?

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  • GITMO is a fine prison.

    26 40.63%
  • GITMO is a fine GULAG.

    10 15.63%
  • The UN is lying.

    23 35.94%
  • GITMO reflects contemporary USA mores.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO upholds the finest standards of USA Justice.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO is a continuing embarrassment.

    27 42.19%
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Thread: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

  1. #181
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    War by it's nature is a savage, ruthless, barbaric, immoral element of the human race that's popularity doesn't appear to be diminishing and any attempts to civilize it is an endeavor of futility unless everyone is in agreement.

    Of course, such an agreement would signal the end of the practice of war all together___You can't mud wrestle with a pig without getting dirty therefore the only way to not get dirty is to not mud wrestle with a pig__Get it?!
    Well the innocent havent been given any choice in this matter given that they are, in fact, innocent. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Also bear in mind that this is the same logic that Bin Laden uses
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 02-15-12 at 07:41 PM.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Empirica;1060203339][QUOTE=Boo Radley;1060187389]
    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    As I previously stated, the act of war itself is already an immoral act and the people of a nation at war demand that their government end it as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible.

    These priorities take precedence over morality especially when faced with a ruthless immoral enemy such as the radical islamic terrorists and it's not about losing the war, it's about saving lives.

    And regardless of what you have read, people will crack under the right torture technique with few exceptions__Why do you think cyanide capsules were issued to intelligence operatives during the 20th century?
    I'm not convinced war is in and of itself an immoral act. While I admire people like Ghandi and King, I saw no problem stopping Nazi aggression, for example.

    And as I keep stating, over and over and over, there is nothing in this threat that justifies us abandoning all our moral values. There is no evidence that being immoral saves lives. As I've linked for you, there is no real evidence torture saves lives. in fact, as other methods are more effective, torture likely in the big picture costs lives.

    And no one said people won't crack. in fact that's the problem. They all will crack, even if they are innocent and have nothing to give. this too often gives us false information (al Libi again) and we waste time running it down. other methods are far more effective. The literature is clear on this.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #183
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well the innocent havent been given any choice in this matter given that they are, in fact, innocent. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Also bear in mind that this is the same logic that Bin Laden uses
    The "innocent" have always suffered and died along side combatants, in fact civilian casualties often outnumber the military's.

    This is an unavoidable consequence of war and why it should always be considered only as a last resort after all else has failed.

    Bin Laden targeted civilians while the US only targets combatants and any civilian casualties are considered collateral damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not convinced war is in and of itself an immoral act. While I admire people like Ghandi and King, I saw no problem stopping Nazi aggression, for example.
    The fact that war is sometimes necessary in no way diminishes it's immorality.

    Your attempt to make war more acceptable by sanitizing it's dynamics is within itself an immoral act.

    And as I keep stating, over and over and over, there is nothing in this threat that justifies us abandoning all our moral values. There is no evidence that being immoral saves lives. As I've linked for you, there is no real evidence torture saves lives. in fact, as other methods are more effective, torture likely in the big picture costs lives.
    Our military's primary mission is to protect our lives and national interests__I believe most agree that this should always take priority over morality.

    But, if their primary mission can be accomplished morally then by all means, do so__Liberals have a problem with priority until someone sticks a gun in their face.

    And no one said people won't crack. in fact that's the problem. They all will crack, even if they are innocent and have nothing to give. this too often gives us false information (al Libi again) and we waste time running it down. other methods are far more effective. The literature is clear on this.
    I am 100% aware of the point you are desperately trying to make, but it seems you have thrown up a mental block to what I have repeatedly told you.

    What you are suggesting is that these intelligence agencies are managed and staffed with inexperienced, incompetent, uneducated, ignorant, sadistic barbarians.

    For the final time!__Information is not considered reliable until it has been compared with information gathered by many intelligence agencies from multiple sources all over the world.

    All of this intelligence is pieced together and compared to determine whether any piece of the puzzle is 0% reliable, 50% reliable, 100% reliable or 98 other possibilities of reliability__Get it?!
    Last edited by Empirica; 02-16-12 at 02:07 PM.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    The "innocent" have always suffered and died along side combatants, in fact civilian casualties often outnumber the military's.

    This is an unavoidable consequence of war and why it should always be considered only as a last resort after all else has failed.

    Bin Laden targeted civilians while the US only targets combatants and any civilian casualties are considered collateral damage.

    The fact that war is sometimes necessary in no way diminishes it's immorality.

    Your attempt to make war more acceptable by sanitizing it's dynamics is within itself an immoral act.

    Our military's primary mission is to protect our lives and national interests__I believe most agree that this should always take priority over morality.

    But, if their primary mission can be accomplished morally then by all means, do so__Liberals have a problem with priority until someone sticks a gun in their face.

    I am 100% aware of the point you are desperately trying to make, but it seems you have thrown up a mental block to what I have repeatedly told you.

    What you are suggesting is that these intelligence agencies are managed and staffed with inexperienced, incompetent, uneducated, ignorant, sadistic barbarians.

    For the final time!__Information is not considered reliable until it has been compared with information gathered by many intelligence agencies from multiple sources all over the world.

    All of this intelligence is pieced together and compared to determine whether any piece of the puzzle is 0% reliable, 50% reliable, 100% reliable or 98 other possibilities of reliability__Get it?!
    "All of this intelligence is pieced together and compared to determine whether any piece of the puzzle is 0% reliable, 50% reliable, 100% reliable or 98 other possibilities of reliability__Get it?!"....

    is this something you have actual experience with, or something you have been told?
    Last edited by randel; 02-16-12 at 02:16 PM.

  5. #185
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    I think Gitmo is an embarressment and disgracing for the West. We were and are so afraid that we sacrificed basic human right standards. We ought to be better than that.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care about genuine terrorists being subjected to tough treatment. But in Guantanamo and similar places, the executive has unchecked power over punishment of suspects, which opens the door for abuse. And many innocent people get crushed in the wheels of that system -- they are not even allowed to legally defend themselves. How many of the extralegal prisoners were just in the wrong place at the wrong time? How many are there because of false accusations by their enemies? We will never know, because the government doesn't allow us to know.

    On top of that, it plays arguments in the hands of our enemies who hate freedom: "Why do you complain about human right abuses? You do it yourself!"

    No, our laws were fine even before 9/11 and it would have been better to enforce them, instead of creating a load of problematic new laws out of panick. No law will ever guarantee 100% security and safety. That's the price of freedom. And we can't fight the enemies of freedom, when we forget who we are and violate human rights in the process, just because we're scared.

    So I'd say the sooner Gitmo is closed, the better.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  6. #186
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Your attempt to make war more acceptable by sanitizing it's dynamics is within itself an immoral act.

    Our military's primary mission is to protect our lives and national interests__I believe most agree that this should always take priority over morality.
    You misunderstand. Nothing I have said suggests the military should not protect lives. As for national interests, that's a little more vague. What is in our national interest? Is needless war, spending billions without good cause in our national interest? Well, that's another issue.

    But,as torture is neither effective or moral, why should it have any support. And while war is nasty business, would you really suggest soldiers have n moral compass, no honor, no standard of behavior? Next to no one in the military believes that.


    But, if their primary mission can be accomplished morally then by all means, do so__Liberals have a problem with priority until someone sticks a gun in their face.
    No. My problem is three fold: 1. Torture is immoral. 2. Torture is illegal. And 3. Torture is ineffective.

    I am 100% aware of the point you are desperately trying to make, but it seems you have thrown up a mental block to what I have repeatedly told you.

    What you are suggesting is that these intelligence agencies are managed and staffed with inexperienced, incompetent, uneducated, ignorant, sadistic barbarians.

    For the final time!__Information is not considered reliable until it has been compared with information gathered by many intelligence agencies from multiple sources all over the world.

    All of this intelligence is pieced together and compared to determine whether any piece of the puzzle is 0% reliable, 50% reliable, 100% reliable or 98 other possibilities of reliability__Get it?!
    Listen, being unreliable is the problem, and checking it out takes time. We have a clear example of us using misinformation to go to war (al Libi), so how did that torture checking out thingie work? I really don't mean to be snarky, but I understand that you think being unreliable is no big deal. My point is, you're wrong. I have an example, something your side cannot provide, that misinformation cost us.

    So while they do as you suggest, torture has little to give, and has been shown to give much in terms of cost. So again;

    1. Torture is immoral. Without **** going to fight for survival levels, torture cannot be justified even as an alternative.

    2. Torture is illegal. If we believe in laws at all, we can't just throw them aside on a whim. Others, we really don't believe in law.

    3. Not only is torture ineffective, other methods are actually effective. Read the Book The Gamble. It is recorded there that we got far more information when we stopped harsh treatment and used other tactics than we ever did with the torture.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #187
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    The "innocent" have always suffered and died along side combatants, in fact civilian casualties often outnumber the military's.

    This is an unavoidable consequence of war and why it should always be considered only as a last resort after all else has failed.
    It is very much avoidable if you

    A Don't employ local mercenaries to pick these people up in the first place and

    B Give them a ****ing trial like any other kind of criminal.

  8. #188
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    It is very much avoidable if you

    A Don't employ local mercenaries to pick these people up in the first place and

    B Give them a ****ing trial like any other kind of criminal.
    Awesome. Perhaps the answer is to kill them on the battlefield.

  9. #189
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Awesome. Perhaps the answer is to kill them on the battlefield.
    What battlefield?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #190
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    What battlefield?
    Good question.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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