View Poll Results: What is GITMO about?

Voters
64. You may not vote on this poll
  • GITMO is a fine prison.

    26 40.63%
  • GITMO is a fine GULAG.

    10 15.63%
  • The UN is lying.

    23 35.94%
  • GITMO reflects contemporary USA mores.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO upholds the finest standards of USA Justice.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO is a continuing embarrassment.

    27 42.19%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 18 of 29 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 285

Thread: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

  1. #171
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:23 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,607

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well blatantly you have, because that is what has taken place in GITMO and that is what you have defended here without one word of criticism or regret.
    Well, for one thing, no it hasn't taken place at Gitmo. There's been no "torture" and 77% of the inmates have been released.

    For another, throughout this thread, I've explained exactly what I meant by all of it, including both items in the last sentence, and why the enemy makes it unavoidable for some "innocents" to be swept up.

    If you haven't bothered to read through the thread and you've leaped to mighty, disgusting conclusions, despite my having said a great deal to the contrary, that's your own mighty failure.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  2. #172
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,596

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Western civilization is dealing with savages who have no appreciation or respect for civility.

    In fact, these savages view western/christian humanitarian principles as a weakness to be exploited.

    To ensure victory and minimize loss of life, every enemy must be dealt with according to each's individual dynamics.

    The policies the left proposes for terrorism would extend the duration of war and increase casualties on both sides.

    Considering your blind liberal party-line loyalty, I don't expect you will be able to grasp this otherwise obvious reality.
    Do we best deal with savages by becoming savages ourselves?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  3. #173
    Transcend~
    Empirica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost at Sea
    Last Seen
    11-24-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,662

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    And innocent people whom it imprisons and tortures (sometimes to death by some accounts). Hardly demonstrating our civility well here are we? Even from a purely military standpoint it makes no sense to do this. If you take the people of Afghanistan as an example: These people are primarily illiterate and somewhat apolitical (something like 5% of Afghans have heard of the attacks on the world trade center). Say one or two members of a small village are abducted and tortured for 5 years or so, then released and allowed to return home. Later that year the village holds a Shura in which they must decide whether to support the insurgency or the Afghan government/coalition forces, who do you think they will support? (Given that both exert a heavy toll for non compliance)

    We made similar mistakes when we where fighting the IRA and often extracted confessions from bombing suspects using torture, this led to innocent people being imprisoned (for 15 years in one of the more high-profile cases) while the guilty where free to carry out more bombings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well blatantly you have, because that is what has taken place in GITMO and that is what you have defended here without one word of criticism or regret.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And if we become them in order to fight them, where does that leave us?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Whether you're correct about them is another issue. As I keep saying this is about us. They have no ability to defeat us. terrorist are largely, as Conrad put it, insects among men. We are better than insects. And while insects can sting, we should have no desire to become insects.

    I also believe your conclusions are faulty. There is no evidence that anything has been shorted or any lives saved due to torture. I know we want to believe it has, and with any evidence provided, too many are willing to just accept that it has. But, evidence really is required. It is just as possible that our actions have inspried more to join the fight and thus prolong the war, and cause more deaths than we'd have seen otherwise. Both require evidence, but some are not asking for any, and are too willing to accpet what they want to believe.

    Also, just for your edification, I oppose torture regardless of party. It's plainly immoral and against all the values I grew up on. So, if you have a problem with my belief, do understand it is my belief. Torture is simply, plainly wrong. Moral, good, law abiding people do not support torture of anyone.
    War by it's nature is a savage, ruthless, barbaric, immoral element of the human race that's popularity doesn't appear to be diminishing and any attempts to civilize it is an endeavor of futility unless everyone is in agreement.

    Of course, such an agreement would signal the end of the practice of war all together___You can't mud wrestle with a pig without getting dirty therefore the only way to not get dirty is to not mud wrestle with a pig__Get it?!



    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    How so? There is no evidence that being them stops such things.
    There is no evidence that it doesn't__When lives are on the line, it is better to be wrong than dead__The best way to evaluate your conviction is to personalize your conviction__Of course honesty is the key element to evaluating the conviction in question.

    If your child had fallen into the hands of radical extremist who announced their intention to behead her/him, and someone who might possibly have information that could save your child's life was about to be water-boarded, would you tell them to stop or proceed?
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  4. #174
    Transcend~
    Empirica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost at Sea
    Last Seen
    11-24-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,662

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Do we best deal with savages by becoming savages ourselves?
    We are the victims__We must do whatever it takes to protect our lives and defend our way of life.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  5. #175
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Empirica;1060186423]
    War by it's nature is a savage, ruthless, barbaric, immoral element of the human race that's popularity doesn't appear to be diminishing and any attempts to civilize it is an endeavor of futility unless everyone is in agreement.

    Of course, such an agreement would signal the end of the practice of war all together___You can't mud wrestle with a pig without getting dirty therefore the only way to not get dirty is to not mud wrestle with a pig__Get it?!
    It is one thing to do something horrible in the heat of battle. it is another thing to be reomved from that heat, in a cell, and to deliberately plan to violate someone. At that point you are not in with the pig, you're the **** the pig steps on.

    Again, it is about us, our values, or morals, or belief in rule of law and humanity. We cannot denounce others for doing what we do.

    There is no evidence that it doesn't__When lives are on the line, it is better to be wrong than dead__The best way to evaluate your conviction is to personalize your conviction__Of course honesty is the key element to evaluating the conviction in question.

    If your child had fallen into the hands of radical extremist who announced their intention to behead her/him, and someone who might possibly have information that could save your child's life was about to be water-boarded, would you tell them to stop or proceed?
    There si a lot of evidence that si unrealiable. In fact, all the evidence says it is unrealiable. there is virtually nothing in any study or writings on torture that doesn't say it is especially effective at getting confessions, even from the innocent, but that it is unrealiable for gathering information.

    Unlike claims that it is effective, not only is there a ton of evidence to support it is not effective, we can point to a recent example al Libi. He was tortured and gave us false information that was used as part of the rationale for invading iraq. It is a concrete and verifiable example. Notice those who support torture not only can't present anything equal, but don't even ask for it before being convinved that it works.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #176
    Transcend~
    Empirica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost at Sea
    Last Seen
    11-24-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,662

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1060186819]
    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post

    It is one thing to do something horrible in the heat of battle. it is another thing to be reomved from that heat, in a cell, and to deliberately plan to violate someone. At that point you are not in with the pig, you're the **** the pig steps on.

    Again, it is about us, our values, or morals, or belief in rule of law and humanity. We cannot denounce others for doing what we do.
    I wasn't referring to "the heat of battle"__I was referring to every aspect of war in general.

    The fact that you are relying on word games and semantics as the basis of your position indicates failure and as far as being "about us, our values, or morals", is absolute kumbaya absurdity.

    These qualities do not apply in times of war when balanced against the lives of our people and an enemy who has no respect for these values and couldn't care less if we "denounce" them because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    There is no evidence that it doesn't__When lives are on the line, it is better to be wrong than dead__The best way to evaluate your conviction is to personalize your conviction__Of course honesty is the key element to evaluating the conviction in question.

    If your child had fallen into the hands of radical extremist who announced their intention to behead her/him, and someone who might possibly have information that could save your child's life was about to be water-boarded, would you tell them to stop or proceed?
    There si a lot of evidence that si unrealiable. In fact, all the evidence says it is unrealiable. there is virtually nothing in any study or writings on torture that doesn't say it is especially effective at getting confessions, even from the innocent, but that it is unrealiable for gathering information.

    Unlike claims that it is effective, not only is there a ton of evidence to support it is not effective, we can point to a recent example al Libi. He was tortured and gave us false information that was used as part of the rationale for invading iraq. It is a concrete and verifiable example. Notice those who support torture not only can't present anything equal, but don't even ask for it before being convinved that it works.
    So, are you saying you would tell the interrogators to stop?__I wonder why I have a problem with your answer?!

    The fact that the talking heads and their cherry picked experts have apparently convinced you that enhanced interrogation and torture are never reliable intelligence gathering tools is a testament to your gullibility.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  7. #177
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Empirica;1060187134][QUOTE=Boo Radley;1060186819]
    I wasn't referring to "the heat of battle"__I was referring to every aspect of war in general.

    The fact that you are relying on word games and semantics as the basis of your position indicates failure and as far as being "about us, our values, or morals", is absolute kumbaya absurdity.

    These qualities do not apply in times of war when balanced against the lives of our people and an enemy who has no respect for these values and couldn't care less if we "denounce" them because of it.
    Not relying on word games, just clarifying. I could declare war aginst the girl scouts and say it justified me doing terrible things. it doesn't. We have laws and rules of behavior even during war. In fact, I would argue they are more important during war, where evil can more readily get out of hand.

    And it is about us, about what we value. We face no threat that justifies us throwing rule of law out the window. Your argument would hold more weight if we faced a threat that could actually defeat us. We don't.


    So, are you saying you would tell the interrogators to stop?__I wonder why I have a problem with your answer?!

    The fact that the talking heads and their cherry picked experts have apparently convinced you that enhanced interrogation and torture are never reliable intelligence gathering tools is a testament to your gullibility.
    Actually, I speak of books on the subject, something you'd have to go to the library to check out and read. As I don't watch political enteritainers of any pursasion any more, or listen to silliness on talk radio, you misread my position for a second time. I served in the military and have read much on torture. I don't kow how to link books from the library. But there are links on the internet, and I linked a few.


    And I gave an example of us getting misinformation, the problem with torture. This is how debate and argment is suppose to work. Nor have I ever used the word never. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But if I get misinformation far more often than I get good information, as the litature says, and other methods are far more effective, as the litature says, then why would we use torture, that is also immoral and illegal?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #178
    Transcend~
    Empirica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost at Sea
    Last Seen
    11-24-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,662

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1060187389][QUOTE=Empirica;1060187134]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    Not relying on word games, just clarifying. I could declare war aginst the girl scouts and say it justified me doing terrible things. it doesn't. We have laws and rules of behavior even during war. In fact, I would argue they are more important during war, where evil can more readily get out of hand.

    And it is about us, about what we value. We face no threat that justifies us throwing rule of law out the window. Your argument would hold more weight if we faced a threat that could actually defeat us. We don't.

    Actually, I speak of books on the subject, something you'd have to go to the library to check out and read. As I don't watch political enteritainers of any pursasion any more, or listen to silliness on talk radio, you misread my position for a second time. I served in the military and have read much on torture. I don't kow how to link books from the library. But there are links on the internet, and I linked a few.


    And I gave an example of us getting misinformation, the problem with torture. This is how debate and argment is suppose to work. Nor have I ever used the word never. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But if I get misinformation far more often than I get good information, as the litature says, and other methods are far more effective, as the litature says, then why would we use torture, that is also immoral and illegal?
    As I previously stated, the act of war itself is already an immoral act and the people of a nation at war demand that their government end it as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible.

    These priorities take precedence over morality especially when faced with a ruthless immoral enemy such as the radical islamic terrorists and it's not about losing the war, it's about saving lives.

    And regardless of what you have read, people will crack under the right torture technique with few exceptions__Why do you think cyanide capsules were issued to intelligence operatives during the 20th century?
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  9. #179
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,753

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    [QUOTE=Empirica;1060203339][QUOTE=Boo Radley;1060187389]
    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    As I previously stated, the act of war itself is already an immoral act and the people of a nation at war demand that their government end it as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible.

    These priorities take precedence over morality especially when faced with a ruthless immoral enemy such as the radical islamic terrorists and it's not about losing the war, it's about saving lives.

    And regardless of what you have read, people will crack under the right torture technique with few exceptions__Why do you think cyanide capsules were issued to intelligence operatives during the 20th century?
    Too be sure, you can get information by using torture.

    But you can never, as I understand it, be sure it's accurate or true, without verification from another source or two.

    Because people will say anything to get it to stop. Or so I understand.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #180
    Transcend~
    Empirica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost at Sea
    Last Seen
    11-24-17 @ 07:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,662

    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Too be sure, you can get information by using torture.

    But you can never, as I understand it, be sure it's accurate or true, without verification from another source or two.

    Because people will say anything to get it to stop. Or so I understand.
    And the experts will agree with you__They've been doing this for a very long time and wouldn't waste time on ineffective methods of intelligence gathering.

    Various intelligence agencies gather information from many sources all over the world and piece them together in an attempt to either validate or dismiss them.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

Page 18 of 29 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •