View Poll Results: What is GITMO about?

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  • GITMO is a fine prison.

    26 40.63%
  • GITMO is a fine GULAG.

    10 15.63%
  • The UN is lying.

    23 35.94%
  • GITMO reflects contemporary USA mores.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO upholds the finest standards of USA Justice.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO is a continuing embarrassment.

    27 42.19%
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Thread: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

  1. #161
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Western civilization is dealing with savages who have no appreciation or respect for civility..
    And innocent people whom it imprisons and tortures (sometimes to death by some accounts). Hardly demonstrating our civility well here are we? Even from a purely military standpoint it makes no sense to do this. If you take the people of Afghanistan as an example: These people are primarily illiterate and somewhat apolitical (something like 5% of Afghans have heard of the attacks on the world trade center). Say one or two members of a small village are abducted and tortured for 5 years or so, then released and allowed to return home. Later that year the village holds a Shura in which they must decide whether to support the insurgency or the Afghan government/coalition forces, who do you think they will support? (Given that both exert a heavy toll for non compliance)

    We made similar mistakes when we where fighting the IRA and often extracted confessions from bombing suspects using torture, this led to innocent people being imprisoned (for 15 years in one of the more high-profile cases) while the guilty where free to carry out more bombings.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 02-08-12 at 03:24 PM.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Western civilization is dealing with savages who have no appreciation or respect for civility.
    And if we become them in order to fight them, where does that leave us?
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And if we become them in order to fight them, where does that leave us?
    Why does everyone say this? We haven't "become them"; we're nowhere close to "being them" and we're never going to be. And no one advocates that we do.

    But what it means is that THEIR tactics necessitate that we do things we'd rather not do because there's no other way to fight them. That's what the rules of warfare were designed to avoid. It's THEY who are breaking them. We wouldn't have to do some of the things we do if they didn't, and that's exactly what's contemplated in the GC and other treaties on the conduct of war. If the enemy follows them, war is less horrible and you reward them by reciprocating. But the enemy doesn't follow them, you do things THEY make you have to do (such as when you can't tell the difference between combatant and civilian).

    And no, this is not "savagery." This is war. War is horrible. That's why everyone should play by the rules.

    It never fails to astound me that people don't grasp this, and some actually do think it's OK for this enemy to disregard all the rules the GC set up.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Why does everyone say this? We haven't "become them"; we're nowhere close to "being them" and we're never going to be. And no one advocates that we do.

    But what it means is that THEIR tactics necessitate that we do things we'd rather not do because there's no other way to fight them. That's what the rules of warfare were designed to avoid. It's THEY who are breaking them. We wouldn't have to do some of the things we do if they didn't, and that's exactly what's contemplated in the GC and other treaties on the conduct of war. If the enemy follows them, war is less horrible and you reward them by reciprocating. But the enemy doesn't follow them, you do things THEY make you have to do (such as when you can't tell the difference between combatant and civilian).

    And no, this is not "savagery." This is war. War is horrible. That's why everyone should play by the rules.

    It never fails to astound me that people don't grasp this, and some actually do think it's OK for this enemy to disregard all the rules the GC set up.
    I'm astounded (and somewhat horrified) that people think its ok to abduct and torture innocent people but then again I'm just weird. Also if you don't apply to GC then you lose the right to criticize your enemy for not applying it
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 02-08-12 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I'm astounded (and somewhat horrified) that people think its ok to abduct and torture innocent people but then again I'm just weird.
    In the one case, because they assume they are guilty, and in the other, because they dare not assume they are innocent, under the circumstances.

    That is the nature of the conflict.


    Edit: too clarify.

    In the first case, I have no say, though I would discourage the torture if possible.

    In the second case, I tend to think torture unacceptable, and worse, inefficient/ineffective...but admit that I have only peripheral knowledge regarding its application.
    Last edited by The Mark; 02-08-12 at 06:06 PM.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And if we become them in order to fight them, where does that leave us?
    Well...for starters...a helluva lot smaller mess to clean up in downtown NYC...

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Well...for starters...a helluva lot smaller mess to clean up in downtown NYC...
    How so? There is no evidence that being them stops such things.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Western civilization is dealing with savages who have no appreciation or respect for civility.

    In fact, these savages view western/christian humanitarian principles as a weakness to be exploited.

    To ensure victory and minimize loss of life, every enemy must be dealt with according to each's individual dynamics.

    The policies the left proposes for terrorism would extend the duration of war and increase casualties on both sides.

    Considering your blind liberal party-line loyalty, I don't expect you will be able to grasp this otherwise obvious reality.
    Whether you're correct about them is another issue. As I keep saying this is about us. They have no ability to defeat us. terrorist are largely, as Conrad put it, insects among men. We are better than insects. And while insects can sting, we should have no desire to become insects.

    I also believe your conclusions are faulty. There is no evidence that anything has been shorted or any lives saved due to torture. I know we want to believe it has, and with any evidence provided, too many are willing to just accept that it has. But, evidence really is required. It is just as possible that our actions have inspried more to join the fight and thus prolong the war, and cause more deaths than we'd have seen otherwise. Both require evidence, but some are not asking for any, and are too willing to accpet what they want to believe.

    Also, just for your edification, I oppose torture regardless of party. It's plainly immoral and against all the values I grew up on. So, if you have a problem with my belief, do understand it is my belief. Torture is simply, plainly wrong. Moral, good, law abiding people do not support torture of anyone.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I'm astounded (and somewhat horrified) that people think its ok to abduct and torture innocent people but then again I'm just weird. Also if you don't apply to GC then you lose the right to criticize your enemy for not applying it
    Show me where I said that. Ever.

    No, it's NOT implied by my post unless you're an idiot. I'm astounded and horrified at what seems to be a stupefying general lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension. But it appears to be the matter of course around here.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Show me where I said that. Ever.

    No, it's NOT implied by my post unless you're an idiot. I'm astounded and horrified at what seems to be a stupefying general lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension. But it appears to be the matter of course around here.
    Well blatantly you have, because that is what has taken place in GITMO and that is what you have defended here without one word of criticism or regret.

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