View Poll Results: What is GITMO about?

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  • GITMO is a fine prison.

    26 40.63%
  • GITMO is a fine GULAG.

    10 15.63%
  • The UN is lying.

    23 35.94%
  • GITMO reflects contemporary USA mores.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO upholds the finest standards of USA Justice.

    21 32.81%
  • GITMO is a continuing embarrassment.

    27 42.19%
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Thread: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

  1. #151
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Let's suppose the sources that convinced you of this were reliable and absolutely no useful information was ever obtained from waterboarding these POWs, then why were so many subjected to it, so many times and for so many years?

    Were the military and intelligence people who performed these waterboardings too stupid to realize this technic failed to serve it's purpose or were they cruel sadistic sociopaths who simply enjoyed to make others suffer or possibly some reason I have overlooked?
    Just some support:

    Ali Soufan, an FBI special agent from 1997 to 2005, told members of a key Senate Judiciary subcommittee that such "techniques, from an operational perspective, are ineffective, slow and unreliable and harmful to our efforts to defeat al Qaeda."

    'Enhanced interrogations' don't work, ex-FBI agent tells panel - CNN


    Republican Sen. John McCain is ripping presidential candidates in his party who insist waterboarding is an effective technique for interrogating suspected terrorists.

    The Arizona lawmaker—who was tortured himself while a prisoner of war in Vietnam — said the controversial practice was both illegal and ineffective on Monday evening.

    “Very disappointed by statements at SC GOP debate supporting waterboarding,” he tweeted. “Waterboarding is torture.”



    Read more: John McCain rips GOP presidential candidates* Herman Cain, Michele Bachmann on waterboarding* - NY Daily News

    A report released Monday by an Irish neuroscience researcher pointed out that methods used by CIA officials to torture terrorist suspects in hopes of gleaning useful information were as problematic as domestic critics said they were.

    The report, published in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences, takes several shots at the Bush administration’s insistence that interrogation methods such as waterboarding, were productive in retrieving information, and that they were harmless to recipients.

    Professor Shane O’Mara of Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience said the backing by CIA officials and former Vice President Dick Cheney was based on “folk psychology” and not science. The report laid out a lengthy argument that techniques CIA officials used to torture suspects affected brain function, making memories inaccurate and in some cases causing permanent brain damage.

    Editorial: Study shows torture ineffective - Aurora Sentinel: Editorials

    The CIA later provided the Washington Post a letter from CIA Director Penetta to Senator McCain that confirms that enhanced interrogation techniques did not help and may have hindered the search for Bin Laden by producing false information during interrogations. In the letter CIA Director Panetta wrote Senator McCain that

    we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002. It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting. In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts. This information was discovered through other intelligence means.[97]

    Enhanced interrogation techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now there are books on this at librarys that offer much more. The interent is less able to pull those up, or at least I am. But there is much written on torture and waterboarding concerning the unreliablity of it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #152
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Water boarding does not qualify as a standard everyday garden variety textbook torture technique, because it lacks several of the key elements.

    First, there is no pain involved, no physical damage inflicted on the body and no permanent disfigurements or lifelong disabilities.

    Water boarding simply involves inflicting terror into the mind of the subject by effectively simulating the sensation of drowning.

    There is very little risk of injury or death providing the subject doesn't suffer from any unknown ailments such as a heart condition or aneurysm.

    Basically, the poor jihadist just gets the bejeebers scared out of him after which time he can get up and walk out under his own power with little more than a wet head.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Water boarding does not qualify as a standard everyday garden variety textbook torture technique, because it lacks several of the key elements.

    First, there is no pain involved, no physical damage inflicted on the body and no permanent disfigurements or lifelong disabilities.

    Water boarding simply involves inflicting terror into the mind of the subject by effectively simulating the sensation of drowning.

    There is very little risk of injury or death providing the subject doesn't suffer from any unknown ailments such as a heart condition or aneurysm.

    Basically, the poor jihadist just gets the bejeebers scared out of him after which time he can get up and walk out under his own power with little more than a wet head.
    Ever been waterboarded? Just curious
    (Disclaimer: I've never been subjected to water boarding)
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  4. #154
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Water boarding does not qualify as a standard everyday garden variety textbook torture technique, because it lacks several of the key elements.

    First, there is no pain involved, no physical damage inflicted on the body and no permanent disfigurements or lifelong disabilities.

    Water boarding simply involves inflicting terror into the mind of the subject by effectively simulating the sensation of drowning.

    There is very little risk of injury or death providing the subject doesn't suffer from any unknown ailments such as a heart condition or aneurysm.

    Basically, the poor jihadist just gets the bejeebers scared out of him after which time he can get up and walk out under his own power with little more than a wet head.
    Yet the key part here is the mental aspect.

    All physical interrogation/torture is just a method to reach the mental, which is where the information is stored.

    And as a general rule, you can never be sure whether the information gathered in such ways – by scaring the person into talking – is accurate or simply fabricated just to make it STOP.
    Education.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Yet the key part here is the mental aspect.

    All physical interrogation/torture is just a method to reach the mental, which is where the information is stored.

    And as a general rule, you can never be sure whether the information gathered in such ways – by scaring the person into talking – is accurate or simply fabricated just to make it STOP.
    If they were relying on that one piece of information alone you would be correct, but these people are experts who have been doing this for a very long time.

    They are able to validate this information by connecting bits and pieces of information gathered from multiple sources all over the world to form logical conclusions.

    These people are simply doing their job, which is to seek out the enemies of the United States and foil their plans in an effort to save american lives if at all possible.

    I do not look at them as sociopaths with an evil desire to cause suffering and pain, but as patriotic dedicated professionals whose job is keeping us safe and alive.

    This has always gone on in times of war except now the 21st century democrats have placed the success of their party above security and safety by politicizing this issue.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

  6. #156
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    As it happens, I may be wrong about the prisoner of war status of all the prisoners at Abu Ghraib; some of them were, but apparently not all.

    Still, as I said, the abuses were crimes in their own right; they had nothing to do with their legal status, and the perpetrators were tried, convicted, and punished.

    In any case, your link doesn't show or even allege anything which even approaches the crimes at Abu Ghraib, and if they happened, they're being officially investigated as misconduct. This isn't showing anything like us claiming to have a free hand to do whatever we want because they have no legal status. In fact, the incidents show the contrary.
    I have no doubt that worse things were done at Abu Ghraib and at "rendition" sites in other countries.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Water boarding does not qualify as a standard everyday garden variety textbook torture technique, because it lacks several of the key elements.

    First, there is no pain involved, no physical damage inflicted on the body and no permanent disfigurements or lifelong disabilities.

    Water boarding simply involves inflicting terror into the mind of the subject by effectively simulating the sensation of drowning.

    There is very little risk of injury or death providing the subject doesn't suffer from any unknown ailments such as a heart condition or aneurysm.

    Basically, the poor jihadist just gets the bejeebers scared out of him after which time he can get up and walk out under his own power with little more than a wet head.
    I don't buy that. First, have you ever drowned? It is not only scary as hell, but painful. Also, the CIA has stated that this is more damaging than regular torture. These techniques stay with the person for years and years, some never recovering.

    You started out asking a fair question, and I'm willing to deal with it that way. but when you devolve into the poor jihadist nonsense you lose that credibility I gave you. It isn't about them, but about us. When we prosecute our own soliders, denounce others for using this technique, and then somehow find the nerve to say it isn't torture when we don't want it framed that way? Well. that's just too much hypocracy, and takes any high ground we may hold away. We are different than our enemy, and we should always behave that way, adhere to our ideals, to our laws.

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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    USA --> STFU ==> UN

    Last edited by American; 02-07-12 at 01:11 PM.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I have no doubt that worse things were done at Abu Ghraib and at "rendition" sites in other countries.
    You may, but it doesn't have much to do with anything I was saying.
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    Re: United Nations: U.S. Operation Of Gitmo Is ‘Clear Breach Of International Law’

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't buy that. First, have you ever drowned? It is not only scary as hell, but painful. Also, the CIA has stated that this is more damaging than regular torture. These techniques stay with the person for years and years, some never recovering.

    You started out asking a fair question, and I'm willing to deal with it that way. but when you devolve into the poor jihadist nonsense you lose that credibility I gave you. It isn't about them, but about us. When we prosecute our own soliders, denounce others for using this technique, and then somehow find the nerve to say it isn't torture when we don't want it framed that way? Well. that's just too much hypocracy, and takes any high ground we may hold away. We are different than our enemy, and we should always behave that way, adhere to our ideals, to our laws.
    Western civilization is dealing with savages who have no appreciation or respect for civility.

    In fact, these savages view western/christian humanitarian principles as a weakness to be exploited.

    To ensure victory and minimize loss of life, every enemy must be dealt with according to each's individual dynamics.

    The policies the left proposes for terrorism would extend the duration of war and increase casualties on both sides.

    Considering your blind liberal party-line loyalty, I don't expect you will be able to grasp this otherwise obvious reality.
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

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