View Poll Results: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney?

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Thread: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

  1. #81
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Teamosil, I enjoy debating with you. I find it hard to continue this discussion, however. When you aren't interested in the details, it makes the argument take on a measure of ideals and that is a whole different story.

    It's also worth pointing out that the details here involve independent economies, governments, spending needs, rewards for that spending, business practices, cultures and more.
    In another thread he continually claimed that the rate he cited was an apples to apples comparison which of course was a lie. he then claimed that all of Romney's other taxes (state income, state property and don't forget the gorilla in the room that lefties NEVER EVER count-the massive federal death tax that in some years could take more than half of a 100 Million dollar estate) were LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF HIS INCOME even though Mitt's home state has an income tax of about 5%

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It doesn't matter to me whether the federal government makes it's tax scheme more progressive to counter the states or the states make their more progressive. All that matters is the total tax burden. What those taxes are called isn't important.
    so the states have a duty to make stuff more progressive or the federal government does if the states don't

    WHY?

  3. #83
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    In another thread he continually claimed that the rate he cited was an apples to apples comparison which of course was a lie. he then claimed that all of Romney's other taxes (state income, state property and don't forget the gorilla in the room that lefties NEVER EVER count-the massive federal death tax that in some years could take more than half of a 100 Million dollar estate) were LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF HIS INCOME even though Mitt's home state has an income tax of about 5%
    This topic is so in-depth, far-reaching, and heated that it's hard to break it all down. Maggie posting that simple calculator and a lot of step-by-step discussion has helped this particular thread. I understand that people desire everything to be fair, but there is such complexity here that it's easy for fair, equal, and progressive to become impossible to agree on.

    Being a private business owner who's taxes are predicted to fall around 40% this year, I've taken a lot of time to educate myself and break down who is taking my money. It's not very simple.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    All issues about progressive taxation, capital-gains tax, and tax loopholes aside, I don't really see how this is Mitt Romney's fault. He didn't write the tax code. He has simply taken whatever advantages the system has provided him. Honestly, who would not do the same? Now, does this mean that there are not perfectly valid questions raised by a millionaire paying that tax rate? No, of course not. Did Romney handle this far more awkwardly than he should have? Definitely, but honestly, who can fault Romney for what doing what we all try to do: legally try to save money on our taxes.
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Teamosil, I enjoy debating with you. I find it hard to continue this discussion, however. When you aren't interested in the details, it makes the argument take on a measure of ideals and that is a whole different story.

    It's also worth pointing out that the details here involve independent economies, governments, spending needs, rewards for that spending, business practices, cultures and more.
    I mean, it's not like there is really a "right" and a "wrong" answer about whether you should consider all taxes or just federal or state taxes one at a time. Depends what you want to know. Personally, the aspect of it that I think is important is how we as a whole society our distributing the costs of maintaining our society. The thing I am interested in with tax questions is how the way that we divide up the burden of sustaining our society affects things like intergenerational income mobility. I want to understand what pressures are causing the rich to rocket away while the middle class are basically stagnating. So, to me, the total tax burden is what matters. It doesn't matter to me at all whether the type of taxes different brackets pay are state or federal or consumption or income, I just care about the total because it is the total that affects people's economic condition.

  6. #86
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    All issues about progressive taxation, capital-gains tax, and tax loopholes aside, I don't really see how this is Mitt Romney's fault.
    It isn't Romney's fault. Not at all. It's a problem with the tax code. Romney's example just highlights how screwed up it is.

    It also creates a major political problem for Romney though. He can't stand there anymore and run the "the rich are paying their fair share" angle anymore because he himself disproves that. The Bain history also makes it hard for him to use the "the rich are job creators" line too. So, he's pretty much hogtied on the core planks of the Republican platform.

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    doesn't matter how much money he paid if he is still paying a less % than many Americans. If I say earned $60k in a year and got taxed 18% I have sacrificed more for taxes than Romeny and have far less to spend on my family than he does!
    Yes you, as well as the great majority of us, have to pay payroll taxes on our entire income, in addition to income tax on our entire income. Those who's income is primarily from investments, only have to pay SS taxes on the portion of their income up to the $106,800 Cap.

    In Romney's case, he only had to pay .1% of his income in payroll taxes for 2010, whereas the middle class have to pay payroll taxes on their entire income.

    2010 Family Trust Return | Mitt Romney for President
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-26-12 at 01:39 AM.
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  8. #88
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I mean, it's not like there is really a "right" and a "wrong" answer about whether you should consider all taxes or just federal or state taxes one at a time. Depends what you want to know. Personally, the aspect of it that I think is important is how we as a whole society our distributing the costs of maintaining our society. The thing I am interested in with tax questions is how the way that we divide up the burden of sustaining our society affects things like intergenerational income mobility. I want to understand what pressures are causing the rich to rocket away while the middle class are basically stagnating. So, to me, the total tax burden is what matters. It doesn't matter to me at all whether the type of taxes different brackets pay are state or federal or consumption or income, I just care about the total because it is the total that affects people's economic condition.
    You can consider state taxes when voting for Governor and state elections, because that is where they change. It's not so much a right or wrong as it is relevant or irrelevant. We are the United States of America. The country was designed on the basis of states having their own controls.

    I'd be happy to take up your post on another thread. I disagree with parts of it, but don't want to derail on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It isn't Romney's fault. Not at all. It's a problem with the tax code. Romney's example just highlights how screwed up it is.

    It also creates a major political problem for Romney though. He can't stand there anymore and run the "the rich are paying their fair share" angle anymore because he himself disproves that. The Bain history also makes it hard for him to use the "the rich are job creators" line too. So, he's pretty much hogtied on the core planks of the Republican platform.
    He actually can run for president of the US saying the rich pay their fair share when the top 1% pay over 36% of the FIT collected. Also, 13.9 has been higher than the other examples posted on this thread. Even taking the standard or everyone deductions, most people fall well below that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes you, as well as the great majority of us, have to pay payroll taxes on our entire income, in addition to income tax on our entire income. Those who's income is primarily from investments, only have to pay SS taxes on the portion of their income up to the $106,800 Cap.

    In Romney's case, he only had to pay .1% of his income in payroll taxes for 2010, whereas the middle class have to pay payroll taxes on their entire income.

    2010 Family Trust Return | Mitt Romney for President
    We touched on this. SS is supposed to be a situation where you get back what you put in. It's not progressive because it is a forced government retirement "plan". If you took the cap off or put it on capital gains, you just end up paying the millions back to people like Romney.

    If you want to abolish it, I'll sign up. The government has shown how irresponsible it can be with money, I wouldn't choose them for a bank anyway. Of course, that's why they force us. If you want to remove the cap, that works too, but I'm going to laugh next year when Romney shows an additional million or so from social "security".
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  9. #89
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    All issues about progressive taxation, capital-gains tax, and tax loopholes aside, I don't really see how this is Mitt Romney's fault. He didn't write the tax code. He has simply taken whatever advantages the system has provided him. Honestly, who would not do the same? Now, does this mean that there are not perfectly valid questions raised by a millionaire paying that tax rate? No, of course not. Did Romney handle this far more awkwardly than he should have? Definitely, but honestly, who can fault Romney for what doing what we all try to do: legally try to save money on our taxes.
    Bingo. Romney pays the legal rate.

  10. #90
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    You can consider state taxes when voting for Governor and state elections, because that is where they change. It's not so much a right or wrong as it is relevant or irrelevant. We are the United States of America. The country was designed on the basis of states having their own controls.
    The line between states and the federal government is very blurry at best. Expenses get shifted back and forth. The federal government gives money to the states, the federal government mandates spending by the states. There is no area of life that is exclusively a state responsibility anymore. People move states regularly, they live in one state and work in another. Many people find themselves working in a dozen different states regularly for their job. Even if you have a job where you physically sit only in the state you live in every day, you're on the phone with other states, conducting business across state lines, continuously. Where in the days of the founders people thought of themselves first as a citizen of Massachusetts and only secondarily as a citizen of the US, now people identify primarily as a citizen of the US and may or may not identify with their state at all really. So, I don't really buy that federalism is a very meaningful concept anymore. It's no longer really a relevant way to split up governance. It doesn't really hurt anything except that it is inefficient, so I don't necessarily think we need to totally dismantle it or something, but it isn't like blurring the tax systems of two sovereigns together. It's more like looking at the state and local taxes together.

    But, more specifically, I don't think it matters which path the taxes go through. It all goes to the same basic function- maintaining our society. Our roads, our schools, our protection, etc. This isn't just a question of federal policy or a question of state policy, it's a question of how we want to distribute the burden of maintaining that society. Right now we basically have a flat distribution for taxes except for that the very poor and the very rich pay much less. The very poor, I can see that. That makes some sense to me. They need a hand to get back in the game. They don't have the money anyways. But the very rich? That makes no sense. They need the money the least and they are drawing the most benefit from society. They should be paying at least as much as the middle class, and really they should be paying more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    He actually can run for president of the US saying the rich pay their fair share when the top 1% pay over 36% of the FIT collected.
    Again, that's just FIT. That isn't the whole story. The 1% pays a considerably smaller portion of taxes overall.

    But, even putting that aside, the reason they are paying so much is because they're getting so much of our GDP. The percentage that the top 1% pays is more a reflection of how wide the gap between them and the middle class has become. When they pay a really high percentage, that is because they are getting more and more of the pie while the rest of us get less and less. That's an argument for MORE progressive taxation, not less.

    And it isn't really the 1% that we are concerned aren't paying their fair share. That's a catchy way to talk about it, but really it is more like the 0.1% or even the 0.01%. The super rich investors. Most of the 1% still makes their money by working. They are indeed paying fairly reasonable taxes. It's the Romneys of the world that make huge amounts of money, but pay virtually nothing because of the capital gains tax break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Also, 13.9 has been higher than the other examples posted on this thread. Even taking the standard or everyone deductions, most people fall well below that.
    Only if you just look at FIT. If you look at all taxes, almost everybody pays a higher percentage than Romney.

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