View Poll Results: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney?

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Thread: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, those are total taxes- between state and federal.
    its useless to include state & local taxes, when each state has its own tax rules.

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, both my source and Romney are using effective tax rates.
    More dishonesty-you are comparing "effective tax rate" for ALL TAXES including the vast majority that are not intended to be progressive vs ONE tax for Mitt that does not take into account state taxes

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Between state and federal, virtually everybody that isn't super wealthy, who isn't living off investment income only, and who doesn't have serious heavyweight tax attorneys and accountants finding every possible loophole pays a higher effective rate than Romney. He pays amongst the lowest effective tax rates in the country.

    The bottom 20% of the income range pays an average of 16.2%
    The average American pays 27%
    Even most people in the top 1% pay 30%
    Romney pays 13.9%

    http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf
    Okay ... I see you post this link a lot and these misleading numbers. Let's take a look at it.

    First of all, let's hit FICA. There is no reason for this program to be progressive. You get out what you paid in (or at least that was the dream that started it). If you want to take the limit off, my immediate thought is how interesting it will be when Mitt starts getting millions a year back in SS.

    I will give you that both employer and employee sides of FICA should be calculated if you are going to count it. This government forced retirement "savings" plan has caused people to take less pay for years. Besides, Romney pays both sides of his on what he makes as actual salary.

    State taxes are a completely separate entity. They shouldn't be counted with federal because they have a separate use, collection system, and entirely different government running them. Are you expecting the federal government to balance out all state taxes? If so, we are in for some much larger control here.

    Additionally, it was an "average" of state taxes. That's not really a good basis. Some states, such as NC charge up to 7.5% on all income plus a consumption tax. Alaska pays you to be a resident. If you want to come picket with me here in NC for fairness, I'll paint the signs. However, each state has its own economy and those taxes don't average well or show a decent representation of federal taxation.

    Romney's state taxes weren't included. He could pay anywhere from 0 to up to 10% in state taxes. I'd be interested to find out, but I don't really consider it relevant to federal tax discussions.

    I looked at your link and it cites ITEPNet as the source for the spreadsheet, but I didn't see where that information was readily checked on that site. Could you guide me? I'd be interested to see.

    It isn't an army of super accountants and attorneys that makes the numbers look so different, it's the numbers being presented.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    hey, if Romney is breaking any laws, let the IRS investigate him. I'm sure they already are.


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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its useless to include state & local taxes, when each state has its own tax rules.
    That's true that different states have different rates, but those are the averages. If you just don't include state taxes you're just artificially distorting the data to make it look like the super rich people pay most the taxes. Rich people pay mostly federal taxes, middle class people pay mostly state taxes.

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    State taxes are a completely separate entity. They shouldn't be counted with federal because they have a separate use, collection system, and entirely different government running them. Are you expecting the federal government to balance out all state taxes? If so, we are in for some much larger control here.
    You can't really meaningfully look at tax burdens without looking at state taxes. It artificially skews it to make it seem like rich people pay more taxes. Federal taxes hit you harder the more you make, state taxes hit you less hard the more you make. So just looking at federal gives you a highly distorted picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Romney's state taxes weren't included. He could pay anywhere from 0 to up to 10% in state taxes. I'd be interested to find out, but I don't really consider it relevant to federal tax discussions.
    Yeah, that's true that we don't know his state taxes. Odds are though that he paid less than 1%. All the regressive ones would disappear in his bracket. Massachusetts has a capital gains tax rate of 5%, but New Hampshire has 0%, so he probably filed for New Hampshire.

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's true that different states have different rates, but those are the averages. If you just don't include state taxes you're just artificially distorting the data to make it look like the super rich people pay most the taxes. Rich people pay mostly federal taxes, middle class people pay mostly state taxes.
    your dishonesty is rampant

    1) Romney's residence for tax purposes has a state income tax. Last I checked it was at least 5%

    2) ROmney owns expensive homes in three states-at least two of them have among the highest property taxes in the country

    3) Romney buys lots of stuff for all his large family. that means a fair amount of sales taxes. He also travels a lot-airport and hotel taxes. He probably employees people so he is paying some of their FICA taxes as well

    4) the tax system is not intended to be progressive. rather some taxes are, some are not. trying to argue a progressive system (FIT) is not progressive enough by including non-progressive taxes in the "rate" is dishonest

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You can't really meaningfully look at tax burdens without looking at state taxes. It artificially skews it to make it seem like rich people pay more taxes. Federal taxes hit you harder the more you make, state taxes hit you less hard the more you make. So just looking at federal gives you a highly distorted picture.
    Again, these are state taxes. Is your solution to have federal government make up for all the differences between state economies and then make it all progressive?

    These are separate governments.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, that's true that we don't know his state taxes. Odds are though that he paid less than 1%. All the regressive ones would disappear in his bracket. Massachusetts has a capital gains tax rate of 5%, but New Hampshire has 0%, so he probably filed for New Hampshire.
    I say that even if we did know his taxes, we run into part 1 of this answer. As it is, it makes for an uninformed comparison between the statistics you posted and his FIT.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Again, these are state taxes. Is your solution to have federal government make up for all the differences between state economies and then make it all progressive?

    These are separate governments.
    It doesn't matter to me whether the federal government makes it's tax scheme more progressive to counter the states or the states make their more progressive. All that matters is the total tax burden. What those taxes are called isn't important.

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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It doesn't matter to me whether the federal government makes it's tax scheme more progressive to counter the states or the states make their more progressive. All that matters is the total tax burden. What those taxes are called isn't important.
    Teamosil, I enjoy debating with you. I find it hard to continue this discussion, however. When you aren't interested in the details, it makes the argument take on a measure of ideals and that is a whole different story.

    It's also worth pointing out that the details here involve independent economies, governments, spending needs, rewards for that spending, business practices, cultures and more.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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