View Poll Results: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney?

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Thread: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

  1. #121
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    We touched on this. SS is supposed to be a situation where you get back what you put in. It's not progressive because it is a forced government retirement "plan". If you took the cap off or put it on capital gains, you just end up paying the millions back to people like Romney.

    If you want to abolish it, I'll sign up. The government has shown how irresponsible it can be with money, I wouldn't choose them for a bank anyway. Of course, that's why they force us. If you want to remove the cap, that works too, but I'm going to laugh next year when Romney shows an additional million or so from social "security".
    You didn't touch on this enough to explain how the SS receipts which have gone into, and have been spent from, the general fund since 1969 are not taxes that are required to be paid by most based on their entire income, are not taxes paid? Especially given the proposals by the GOP to privatize SS so they do not have to discontinue the tax cuts to the rich to repay that money owed to the SS fund.

    SS is a government service, just like the other services the government provides for the taxes it collects. The SS cap on income has been increased many times in the past to keep the fund solvent. The current low cap together with the lowered capital gains tax rate is what allows those (like Romney and Buffett) who's income is primarily from investments, to pay a lower total federal tax rate than many in the middle class. And that is not even looking at state tax rates which favor the rich even more so.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You didn't touch on this enough to explain how the SS receipts which have gone into, and have been spent from, the general fund since 1969 are not taxes that are required to be paid by most based on their entire income, are not taxes paid? Especially given the proposals by the GOP to privatize SS so they do not have to discontinue the tax cuts to the rich to repay that money owed to the SS fund.

    SS is a government service, just like the other services the government provides for the taxes it collects. The SS cap on income has been increased many times in the past to keep the fund solvent. The current low cap together with the lowered capital gains tax rate is what allows those (like Romney and Buffett) who's income is primarily from investments, to pay a lower total federal tax rate than many in the middle class. And that is not even looking at state tax rates which favor the rich even more so.
    Again, SS is not really on-topic here. The debt the government owes those who have been forced to pay into a failed system is not directly relevant to Romney's effective FIT. I would, however, love your input on my other thread on this topic. I've linked to it a couple times and don't want to keep doing so.

    Oh, and in the other thread, we can talk about state taxes and which of the 51 governments involved we should start with. I missed that last line when I first read. It's on topic for the other thread as well.
    Last edited by Keridan; 01-26-12 at 08:54 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Again, SS is not really on-topic here. The debt the government owes those who have been forced to pay into a failed system is not directly relevant to Romney's effective FIT. I would, however, love your input on my other thread on this topic. I've linked to it a couple times and don't want to keep doing so.

    Oh, and in the other thread, we can talk about state taxes and which of the 51 governments involved we should start with. I missed that last line when I first read. It's on topic for the other thread as well.
    It most certainly is on topic. Romney's effective tax rate of 13.9% included the the payroll taxes he paid, which were .1% of his income compared to the middle class who must pay payroll taxes on their entire income.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #124
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It most certainly is on topic. Romney's effective tax rate of 13.9% included the the payroll taxes he paid, which were .1% of his income compared to the middle class who must pay payroll taxes on their entire income.
    I missed the point where the article spelled out whether it was included or not. However, the vast difference between FICA and FIT is a huge topic. That's why I did another thread.

    I will keep it simple. The SS is essentially a loan to the government, as any investment is. The idea is that they will pay you back what you paid in with interest. If they spent that money for other things, it's the same as spending borrowed money from another country. It's spending without revenue to support it and they still owe that money back. Now, it is a flat tax because it supposedly pays you back based on what you put into it.

    So, do we remove the cap? Romney would see millions in SS coming back at him. His rate would go up, but he wouldn't really be contributing more. Do we make it progressive? If so, he still gets more back.

    I've seen other suggestions, like freeze benefits but remove cap. Basically, this is stating that after he's managed to cover his retirement, he should pay for everyone else's retirement with his money. This would be the most direct wealth redistribution I can see flowing through government short of taking your paycheck and handing it to the next guy.

    Am I missing an option to fix it?

    This is why I made another thread. FICA is not FIT. SIT is not FIT. It's something worth going into. I would honestly love to discuss it in more detail there.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    doesn't matter how much money he paid if he is still paying a less % than many Americans. If I say earned $60k in a year and got taxed 18% I have sacrificed more for taxes than Romeny and have far less to spend on my family than he does!
    The possibility exists that we need true tax reform...
    This will never happen as long as the law-makers are wealthy ..conservatives ...only caring about themselves....

  6. #126
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I missed the point where the article spelled out whether it was included or not. However, the vast difference between FICA and FIT is a huge topic. That's why I did another thread.
    Effective federal taxes are what a person actually pays.

    "While payroll taxes eat up 6 percent of the income of Americans earning the national median income of $50,221, Mr. Romney and his wife paid just one-tenth of 1 percent of their income in payroll taxes."



    So, do we remove the cap? Romney would see millions in SS coming back at him. His rate would go up, but he wouldn't really be contributing more. Do we make it progressive? If so, he still gets more back.
    Please cite your source that says SS benefits were increased the many times the cap has been increased in the past?

    I've seen other suggestions, like freeze benefits but remove cap. Basically, this is stating that after he's managed to cover his retirement, he should pay for everyone else's retirement with his money. This would be the most direct wealth redistribution I can see flowing through government short of taking your paycheck and handing it to the next guy.

    Am I missing an option to fix it?
    Yes:

    Today, the richest 1 percent of Americans take home over 20 percent of the nation’s total income, almost twice as much as they did in 1983. And, thanks to the ceiling—currently set at $106,800—they pay no Social Security tax on most of what they make. As a result, the Social Security payroll tax now touches only 84 percent of the nation’s income, down from 91 percent in 1983. Lifting the cap to $180,000 would close that 7 percent gap.
    Another Bad Ceiling | Commonweal magazine


    "Remember, the Social Security payroll tax applies only to earnings up to a certain ceiling. (That ceiling is now $106,800.) The ceiling rises every year according to a formula roughly matching inflation.

    Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of all wages covered by Social Security. That 90 percent figure was built into the Greenspan Commission's fixes. The Commission assumed that, as the ceiling rose with inflation, the Social Security payroll tax would continue to hit 90 percent of total income.

    Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.

    It went from 90 percent to 84 percent because a larger and larger portion of total income has gone to the top. In 1983, the richest 1 percent of Americans got 11.6 percent of total income. Today the top 1 percent takes in more than 20 percent.

    If we want to go back to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000.

    Presto. Social Security's long-term (beyond 26 years from now) problem would be solved."
    Robert Reich: Budget Baloney: Why Social Security Isn't a Problem for 26 Years, and the Best Way to Fix It Permanently
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-26-12 at 11:25 PM.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Okay, Cat, if you want to take this up in the other thread, I'm happy to. However, since I don't believe that making the wealthy pay for everyone's retirement or that using that retirement fund to increase already outrageous spending are good things, I think we will have plenty to talk about there. In fact, I'm interested to see your input since you seem to have some interesting points here.

    Simply put, though, FICA is not FIT because it is a forced retirement pyramid scheme that was supposed to pay out what you put into it and used it's initial funding to help those who had not had the chance to pay in. The fact that they've had to raise the cap to keep the pyramid from collapsing does not mean it should suddenly become progressive, it just means the government should never be in charge of money.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Okay, Cat, if you want to take this up in the other thread, I'm happy to. However, since I don't believe that making the wealthy pay for everyone's retirement or that using that retirement fund to increase already outrageous spending are good things, I think we will have plenty to talk about there. In fact, I'm interested to see your input since you seem to have some interesting points here.

    Simply put, though, FICA is not FIT because it is a forced retirement pyramid scheme that was supposed to pay out what you put into it and used it's initial funding to help those who had not had the chance to pay in. The fact that they've had to raise the cap to keep the pyramid from collapsing does not mean it should suddenly become progressive, it just means the government should never be in charge of money.
    Since payroll taxes are a factor in Romney paying a lower effective rate on his federal taxes, this thread is exactly the right place to discuss this. The greater good is higher priority than your personal preference.

    No one has claimed that FICA is FIT, but is part of the effective federal taxes everyone pays.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #129
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Since payroll taxes are a factor in Romney paying a lower effective rate on his federal taxes, this thread is exactly the right place to discuss this. The greater good is higher priority than your personal preference.

    No one has claimed that FICA is FIT, but is part of the effective federal taxes everyone pays.
    and since FICA is not intended to be progressive trying to claim it makes the FIT system less progressive is dishonest

  10. #130
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    Re: Do you have a higher effective tax rate than mitt romney

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and since FICA is not intended to be progressive trying to claim it makes the FIT system less progressive is dishonest
    FICA is suppose to be funded so that it is self sufficient, that is the point. As stated before:

    "Today, the richest 1 percent of Americans take home over 20 percent of the nation’s total income, almost twice as much as they did in 1983. And, thanks to the ceiling—currently set at $106,800—they pay no Social Security tax on most of what they make. As a result, the Social Security payroll tax now touches only 84 percent of the nation’s income, down from 91 percent in 1983. Lifting the cap to $180,000 would close that 7 percent gap."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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