The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagree

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I'm not touching this poll.

From a strictly economic perspective, I simply don't see how obeying copyright laws would improve the economy. I will admit it: I infringe copyrights. A lot. But the thing is, I also spend the majority of my disposable income-- when I have any-- on intellectual property. I see movies in the theaters. I buy books, and unlike a number of other supposed IP supporters, I buy my books new so that my purchases actually support the publishers. I've gone back and purchased legal copies of materials I've already downloaded.

The thing is, piracy is not theft. It does not work even remotely like theft. When a person steals a physical item, the person they stole it from is out the price they paid for it; they are directly harmed in a fashion that they can directly account for. When a person illegally downloads a copyrighted intellectual property, the person who owns that IP is out nothing; they have lost money if and only if the person who downloaded it would have purchased it otherwise, and they still have that IP available for sale. Piracy isn't theft, it is the distribution of counterfeit goods. However much those counterfeit goods hurt the bottom lines of the companies that produce legitimate products, those counterfeit goods are still real economic goods that are still beneficial to society. And when those counterfeit goods drive sales of genuine goods, as has been alleged with supporting evidence, then they are actually enhancing the value of those intellectual properties.

Obviously, the people who create culture and information need to get paid. I'm the last person who's going to argue otherwise because this is my livelihood we're talking about. But increasingly draconian penalties and control measures are not the solution; these things hurt our customers and they hurt us in the long run. The only way we're going to survive this is by finding ways to make our money despite the piracy, and the companies that are going to be the most successful are going to be the ones that learn to make their money because of the piracy-- the companies that find a way to make free online distribution work for them rather than against them.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Antiderivative said:

In addition, IP is not subject to the ordinary economic of laws of scarcity. The transmission of ideas does not diminish other people's physical property (i.e. land, labor, capital).

The scarcity problem simply does not exist for intellectual property and therefore is not necessarily subject to the laws of private property.

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True enough, but open to the law allowing exclusivity for a limited period of time.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

In addition, many copyright laws do not necessarily benefit the "originator", but the distributor. For example, I recently bought The Cars CD at Wal-Mart since I was delving into late 70's, early 80's new wave and saw a copy for $5.00 while shopping for a pillow.

While I do not have proof of my assertion, I assume that most of the profits went to Wal-Mart rather than to the musicians.

There is a lot of middle men in copyright laws.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Hatuey said:

As somebody who makes a very comfortable living from their intellectual property, I wholeheartedly disagree.

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Of course you do, your entire reasoning is self serving by it's very nature.
If IP laws are loosened, you may have to do more work to earn the same income.

Knowing all that, your arguments aren't any more valid than a non IP producer.
You blame them for wanting something for nothing, while at the same time you want something for nothing.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Antiderivative said:

No offense, but you have not fully articulated yourself on the gray areas. Granted it may not be a black and white area, but it would be best if you discussed why it is not a black and white issue, instead of simply saying so. I don't mean this as an attack, but interested your opinions - either formulated or in the process of formulation.

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I haven't fully articulated my opinions because they are not fully formed. I'm just saying I can see both sides - most of my opinions on the issue I have already stated in this thread.

FWIW teamosil's post a few pages back articulated pretty well what I think the problem is.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Harry Guerrilla said:

Of course you do, your entire reasoning is self serving by it's very nature.
If IP laws are loosened, you may have to do more work to earn the same income.

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So, you'd be okay to do more work to earn the same income just because other people wanted to use your work to make money for themselves.

Knowing all that, your arguments aren't any more valid than a non IP producer.
You blame them for wanting something for nothing, while at the same time you want something for nothing.

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So wanting the profits earned by one's own work as long as that work is producing revenue is the same as wanting something for nothing.

Never mind. This is the reason I hate these "we want to use the IP of other people for our own gain" threads with a pink-and-purple passion. MY work is MY work, and as long as it is producing revenue, I or my heirs are entitled to it.

/my contribution to this discussion.. or, as I like to think of it, my "infraction avoidance protocol".

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

DiAnna said:

So, you'd be okay to do more work to earn the same income just because other people wanted to use your work to make money for themselves.

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Yes, in fact I do this every single week.
It's called a job and this is how it works for the vast majority of people.

I get paid to build things, my company sells them and makes a profit and so do I.
But I can't just make one thing and derive a lifetime of benefits.

Edit: also, the economic climate of the world changes, it's dynamic.
Some jobs pay less than they used to and it's up to the individual to create more value, in order to make more money.
What you guys are telling me is that, you should be exempt from an evolving world.
T'aint gonna happen.

DiAnna said:

So wanting the profits earned by one's own work as long as that work is producing revenue is the same as wanting something for nothing.

Never mind. This is the reason I hate these "we want to use the IP of other people for our own gain" threads with a pink-and-purple passion. MY work is MY work, and as long as it is producing revenue, I or my heirs are entitled to it.

/my contribution to this discussion.. or, as I like to think of it, my "infraction avoidance protocol".

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I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but what you're telling me is that one instance of work, is enough to earn you and your family a lifetime of benefits.
We can argue all day about this, but if you aren't updating your work, refreshing it, etc, you've essentially abandoned it.
Someone else should have the opportunity to make it better than you did, without having to pay you or get your permission.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

DiAnna said:

So wanting the profits earned by one's own work as long as that work is producing revenue is the same as wanting something for nothing.

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You only wrote the book once. How many times do you expect to get paid for it? That's what our resident economists are describing as "rent-seeking" behavior, as opposed to productive behavior like writing more books.

Don't get me wrong, I support our right to make profits from our work-- but if our right to profit is only secured due to a public interest in ensuring that our work continues, then at some point that protection must give way to the public interest in seeing that our works are accessible. There needs to be a balance between these two competing interests.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Harry Guerrilla said:

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but what you're telling me is that one instance of work, is enough to earn you and your family a lifetime of benefits.
We can argue all day about this, but if you aren't updating your work, refreshing it, etc, you've essentially abandoned it.
Someone else should have the opportunity to make it better than you did, without having to pay you or get your permission.

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Trouble is, the primary creative force behind the work (the artist) is making the least money from it. The guy with the very least creativity involved (distributors) makes the lion's share of the money even long after the artistic work is completed. And it's the distributors making the most noise about copyright infringement.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

We should all respect it and pay for this stuff.. Don't you want to be paid for your work? Of course you do. But this thread made me think of an article I read the other day on Slate.

A little copyright infringement is good for the economy and society:
SOPA: Stopping online piracy would be a social and economic disaster. - Slate Magazine

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

EagleAye said:

Trouble is, the primary creative force behind the work (th is making the least money from it. The guy with the very least creativity involved (distributors) makes the lion's share of the money even long after the artistic work is completed. And it's the distributors making the most noise about copyright infringement.

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A ****ing men. This is another problem I have with the nature of IP as it currently exists.

How many millions or perhaps billions of dollars in revenue has Microsoft derived from the Halo video game franchise? What portion of that actually went to the creators (the developers/programmers, voice actors, storyboard writers, concept artists etc.?)

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Viktyr Korimir said:

You only wrote the book once. How many times do you expect to get paid for it? That's what our resident economists are describing as "rent-seeking" behavior, as opposed to productive behavior like writing more books.

Don't get me wrong, I support our right to make profits from our work-- but if our right to profit is only secured due to a public interest in ensuring that our work continues, then at some point that protection must give way to the public interest in seeing that our works are accessible. There needs to be a balance between these two competing interests.

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Right on the money Vik.

I can never word my opinion, as good as you.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

The internet is now seen as American property, as opposed to a construct of organically flowing ideas.

To be honest I don't really care about copyright law, and I don't mean that in an "I want to steal files" kind of way; I mean it more in a, "I am so sick of the way our government has been taking away freedoms" kind of way.

There always exists a middle route where compromise can be had. To me, the entertainment industry is basically tearing apart something that could make our whole race better off - a free information system. I think the government can handle losing power over that - after all, government power is already divided into the different branches in our country's case. It's the profiteers that cannot handle free information.

It is not the every day people who are behind internet censorship, it's big companies that have already raked in hundreds of billions of dollars over the years. The average joe publisher is not why the internet crack down is happening, Iran style. It's because the powers that be are not having the influence on the net that they're used to in the offline world, and they need to tweak the net.

I really hope servers continue to move overseas into protected areas. There will always be some countries that don't give a **** what the U.S. government thinks.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Viktyr Korimir said:

You only wrote the book once. How many times do you expect to get paid for it?

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As many times as somebody wants to purchase the content of their book.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Hatuey said:

As many times as somebody wants to purchase the content of their book.

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Nothing else in our society works that way.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Viktyr Korimir said:

Nothing else in our society works that way.

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You mean like musicians, prints of artist's paintings, software developers?

If anything, I think novelists aren't paid nearly well enough for the work they put into it. A very large number are superior in caliber to Stephen King, for instance, but must maintain "a real job" just to keep going.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

EagleAye said:

You mean like musicians, prints of artist's paintings, software developers?

If anything, I think novelists aren't paid nearly well enough for the work they put into it. A very large number are superior in caliber to Stephen King, for instance, but must maintain "a real job" just to keep going.

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Stephen King "hit it" and I actually like his work. What I do not like is it becoming the end end all and be all of horror. But hey that is how industry works. Kill the competition.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

EagleAye said:

You mean like musicians, prints of artist's paintings, software developers?

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Those are all the same thing. What I mean is, even people who manage rental properties-- the definition of rent-seeking-- have to continue investing work and capital in order to maintain their income.

EagleAye said:

If anything, I think novelists aren't paid nearly well enough for the work they put into it.

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Hey, I can sympathize with that.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I didn't vote because your choices were sorely lacking.

I disagree for the simple fact that compared to other things copyright infringement of the kind that is normally done on the internet (books, movies, music) only affects minor industries. Those industries are industries that do not make this country run.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Kal'Stang said:

I didn't vote because your choices were sorely lacking.

I disagree for the simple fact that compared to other things copyright infringement of the kind that is normally done on the internet (books, movies, music) only affects minor industries. Those industries are industries that do not make this country run.

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Ever hear of cultural imperialism? Why do you think the world over people from China to France to India recognize Micky Mouse?

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Kal'Stang said:

I disagree for the simple fact that compared to other things copyright infringement of the kind that is normally done on the internet (books, movies, music) only affects minor industries. Those industries are industries that do not make this country run.

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I think the question of the original OP was whether or not piracy was harming the economy. For me, the answer is an emphatic, NO! That would be like thinking a mosquito bite could knock a Clydesdale unconscious.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Kal'Stang said:

I didn't vote because your choices were sorely lacking.

I disagree for the simple fact that compared to other things copyright infringement of the kind that is normally done on the internet (books, movies, music) only affects minor industries. Those industries are industries that do not make this country run.

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No offense but what do you call a "minor industry"? There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who are employed directly or indirectly because of those minor industries. Just a simple example:

1 movie/show production employs - carpenters, drivers, caterers, assistants at every level, sound engineers etc. I'm not even counting all the other menial things that aren't ever included in the credits. Now multiply this by the hundreds of studio productions that go on every year on both coasts. What is "minor" about it?

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

EagleAye said:

I think the question of the original OP was whether or not piracy was harming the economy. For me, the answer is an emphatic, NO! That would be like thinking a mosquito bite could knock a Clydesdale unconscious.

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I think it has given more control to the powers that control distribution than any time in history and marginalized artists.

It is industry run amok.

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Viktyr Korimir said:

Nothing else in our society works that way.

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Which commercially sold product in this country can you simply take advantage of without paying for it first? Lets just take for example C.S. Lewis? Can you simply take one of his books from a shelf without paying for it because he's been dead for 50 years? Obviously you wouldn't walk into a book store and take one of those books there regardless of how long the author has been deceased. So what's so different about doing the same thing with IP? That's what people who defend the theft of IP can't seem to answer. If they wouldn't steal the physical representation of the works, what makes stealing the digital version any less of a theft?

Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Hatuey said:

Which commercially sold product in this country can you simply take advantage of without paying for it first? Lets just take for example C.S. Lewis? Can you simply take one of his books from a shelf without paying for it because he's been dead for 50 years? Obviously you wouldn't walk into a book store and take one of those books there regardless of how long the author has been deceased. So what's so different about doing the same thing with IP? That's what people who defend the theft of IP can't seem to answer. If they wouldn't steal the physical representation of the works, what makes stealing the digital version any less of a theft?

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Screw that what about a Snickers bar? or even an image of it!