View Poll Results: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagree

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  • Agree. Respect people's copyrights. Pay for what you use.

    13 44.83%
  • Disagree. In the digital age, people should get to copy what they want.

    16 55.17%
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Thread: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagree

  1. #111
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    First of all, IP is not infinite supply of creativity. It's constrained by the fact that the individual's life and creative periods are both finite. That's why the works of Van Gogh are worth millions and the works of some hipster kid aren't. At least not yet.
    No, but there is an infinite supply of copies of an idea once that idea has been conceived. That's why ideas are protected by copyright law in the first place and why copyright protections are limited in both duration and scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is simply nonsense. When you a physical copy you're paying for the content of it. When you buy a digital copy, you're paying for the same content. There is absolutely no difference between them. They're different mediums for the exact same thing. So to say that a physical copy and digital copy are separated by the loss of income is simply ridiculous. Adobe loses more from people who won't buy their products and instead steal photoshop, than it does from people who run into the store to try and grab the program from the shelves.
    “It's hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck depends on him not understanding it.”

    When you run into a store and steal a copy of Adobe Photoshop, Adobe hasn't lost anything because they've already been paid for that copy. It's the store that loses money, because they paid money for the missing copy and now must pay more money to replace it. When you illegally download Adobe Photoshop, Adobe still hasn't lost anything unless you would have been willing and able to pay the $700 for it if not for the ability to download it instead. The only thing they are "losing" is a sale; that is not the same thing, morally or economically, as theft.

    Let's say that every year, a company produces 100,000 loaves of bread; they sell 90,000 loaves and 10,000 loaves are stolen. Those 10,000 loaves of bread are a real loss to them; it cost the company a significant portion of the loaves' sale price to bake them, so every loaf stolen represents the loss of that amount of money not counting the profit they could have made if they'd sold it. If they could control theft and have no loaves stolen, in exchange for only producing and selling 80,000 loaves of bread, this is a gain for them. They make more money despite selling fewer units because they have fewer losses.

    By contract, let's say that a different company sells 90,000 legitimate copies of a piece of software and 1,000,000 copies are illegally downloaded. Those 1,000,000 illegal copies didn't cost the company a dime. The company didn't even produce them-- if they're on any kind of physical medium at all, the software pirate had to provide it himself. The company only has a hypothetical loss, of however many copies it thinks it could have sold if people weren't capable of downloading them; if they think even one percent of those downloads are real lost sales, they're spending far too much of their meager salaries on drugs. If the company could implement magical DRM that means that the software can not be illegally copied, at the expense of only selling 80,000 legitimate copies, they're losing money. This is what IP creators and distributors need to learn; if you can make 10,000 additional sales at the expense of allowing 10,000 additional illegal downloads, that's more money for you. If you can make 1,000 additional sales for 100,000 illegal downloads, that's still more money for you.

    There is no "shrink" in intellectual property. Sales are the only number that matter and the only number anyone should pay attention to; anything that increases sales is good for business, no matter how much it also increases piracy, and anything that decreases sales is bad for business, no matter how much it decreases piracy. You don't see a dime from secondhand sales of your IP, and the overwhelming majority of used book purchases are lost sales; it's funny that you never see anyone comparing that to theft.

  2. #112
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Some here like to distort my opinion on the subject, but I too think that someone is entitled to compensation for their work, whether it IP or other.
    The problem I have is that the law gives more privileged benefits to IP producers, than is necessary.
    People "Distort" your position?
    You mean you BLATANTLY LIE about your position.
    Let's look at another of your posts/several posts on this position:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/histor...post1059805506

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig
    One is entitled to Some exclusivity, Obviously.
    AGAIN, otherwise there is no incentive to do years of research and spend Billions of dollars on Cancer or Diabetes drugs that could then just be copied in a week. To name just one of many, many, examples.
    Again, it's a necessary pillar of a capitalist system. To even have to debate this is Ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerilla
    They have the benefit of first to market.
    No other exclusivity is necessary.

    Copied in a week?
    Have you ever reverse engineered a drug or do you have such an intimate knowledge of it, to make such a statement?
    I seriously question your qualifications in this area.
    Quote Originally Posted by mbig
    This is another Disngenuous and Pathetic Response.
    "A week" IS possible with some things in some cases. Software for instance. Even amateurs have 'unlocked' cell phones/Apples codes.
    Months would be tops even for Drug with today's diagnostic tools.
    That hardly compensates for the idea, years, or Billions it takes for the development of things like Cancer, Diabetes, drugs etc.

    To have an ostensibly sensible poster not only hold the idea, but Disingenuously try and defend it with BS is beyond disappointing
    /End http://www.debatepolitics.com/histor...post1059805506
    and please read the rest as well for More of Harry Disingenuous posting.

    IOW, Harry's position is/was you get ZERO protection; others can use it as fast as they can copy it.
    Who's "distorting"?
    This is like debating a Young Earth Creationist who just found out Dinosaurs exist.
    This week he's at least up to 10 years in the other poll string on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerilla
    With physical property, if you abandon it, after a certain amount of time, you lose the rights to it.
    There is an implicit duty to maintain physical property, but none for IP.
    So if you don't rewrite your book, play, or song (or Paint over your Mona Lisa) it's "abandoned", others can just copy it next year.
    What an Inapt/deceptive comparison in service of ideology.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-22-12 at 03:45 PM.
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  3. #113
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post

    Let's say that every year, a company produces 100,000 loaves of bread; they sell 90,000 loaves and 10,000 loaves are stolen. Those 10,000 loaves of bread are a real loss to them; it cost the company a significant portion of the loaves' sale price to bake them, so every loaf stolen represents the loss of that amount of money not counting the profit they could have made if they'd sold it. If they could control theft and have no loaves stolen, in exchange for only producing and selling 80,000 loaves of bread, this is a gain for them. They make more money despite selling fewer units because they have fewer losses.
    If you took those 100,000 loaves of bread and put them behind the counter, those people who originally stole 10,000 loaves would not run out to buy 10,000 loaves just because they can not longer just snatch and grab.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #114
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    You only wrote the book once. How many times do you expect to get paid for it? That's what our resident economists are describing as "rent-seeking" behavior, as opposed to productive behavior like writing more books.
    I never "got paid" for writing the book. I only get paid when someone buys a new copy of the book. If nobody buys my book, I get nothing. The only money I earn for writing that book is when someone buys a new copy of it. Lots of people profit off my work, including the publisher. After the book is sold once, it can and is resold again and again and again, and I don't make a penny off of it. In my 15 years of writing, I'd like to think my behavior was quite productive since I produced 35 novels.

    Those novels are being sold new every year around the globe, in literally dozens of different languages and different packages. Every time someone around the globe purchases a new copy, I get a few cents. Twice a year they add up the pennies and I get a check. You don't think I'm entitled to that. Well, I am.

    Don't get me wrong, I support our right to make profits from our work-- but if our right to profit is only secured due to a public interest in ensuring that our work continues, then at some point that protection must give way to the public interest in seeing that our works are accessible. There needs to be a balance between these two competing interests.
    My work IS accessible. Buy the book. You don't want to buy it new, search garage sales and used book stores. Or find a pirated copy online if you can, but between my publisher's considerable influence and The Authors Guild, you'll have to work to find such a site. The public has no right to take my original work and "make it better". That's plagiarism, and it's also illegal... although I'm sure that galls more than a few people as well.

    I don't care how many people stomp their little feet and cry foul, my novels are my creation and everytime anyone on the planet buys a legitimate new copy in any language, I'm going to get a percent of the cover price. Deal with it.

    There is absolutely no comparison to taking a risk by investing hundreds upon hundreds of hours creating something that may be completely unsaleable to someone who takes a regular paycheck for working a job. I know. I've done both. However, I'm not the one saying that after you've worked at your job for a certain number of years, your paycheck should be donated to the public because they deserve access to it. And that's exactly what some in this thread, and other such threads, are saying.

  5. #115
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Those novels are being sold new every year around the globe, in literally dozens of different languages and different packages. Every time someone around the globe purchases a new copy, I get a few cents. Twice a year they add up the pennies and I get a check. You don't think I'm entitled to that. Well, I am.
    You got me all wrong. I absolutely believe you're entitled to that. I just don't believe you're entitled to it forever. It's necessary for works to enter the public domain at some point, and more than a century is ridiculously long. "Rent-seeking" isn't morally wrong, it's just not economically productive. Copyright exists to provide a profit incentive to write new books, not to ensure a lifetime of income for someone who writes one best-seller.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    There is absolutely no comparison to taking a risk by investing hundreds upon hundreds of hours creating something that may be completely unsaleable to someone who takes a regular paycheck for working a job. I know. I've done both. However, I'm not the one saying that after you've worked at your job for a certain number of years, your paycheck should be donated to the public because they deserve access to it. And that's exactly what some in this thread, and other such threads, are saying.
    You think I don't know this? I'm still struggling to sell my work. I know the effort involved, and I know the risks. But it doesn't matter how many hundreds of hours you've put into a job, you don't get to collect a paycheck for the rest of your life, and then leave it to your estate for all of eternity when you die. That's not how it works, that's not how it should work, and the fact that people are arguing that it should is goddamned ridiculous. It's a crowning testament to the power of corporate propaganda that people think it's even remotely reasonable, from either a moral perspective or an economic one, for copyrights to last for centuries.

  6. #116
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    People "Distort" your position?
    You mean you BLATANTLY LIE about your position.
    Let's look at another of your posts/several posts on this position:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/histor...post1059805506



    /End http://www.debatepolitics.com/histor...post1059805506
    and please read the rest as well for More of Harry Disingenuous posting.

    IOW, Harry's position is/was you get ZERO protection; others can use it as fast as they can copy it.
    Who's "distorting"?
    This is like debating a Young Earth Creationist who just found out Dinosaurs exist.
    This week he's at least up to 10 years in the other poll string on this.

    So if you don't rewrite your book, play, or song (or Paint over your Mona Lisa) it's "abandoned", others can just copy it next year.
    What an Inapt/deceptive comparison in service of ideology.
    Am I not allowed to moderate and change my own beliefs?
    It's funny that instead of going on what is said here, you have to pull from a months old thread in order to attack me.

    Same ole same ole, with you.
    The distortion of my position is that people think I want free stuff, that's not the case.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #117
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If you took those 100,000 loaves of bread and put them behind the counter, those people who originally stole 10,000 loaves would not run out to buy 10,000 loaves just because they can not longer just snatch and grab.
    That's exactly true. The fact is, those 10,000 people have NEVER bought the media they've used. They listened to the radio, they borrowed music from friends, they copied it onto cassette, etc. It's just much easier today and much more visible, you don't have to know someone who has the CD, it's just available online. There aren't really any more people today not buying media than ever didn't buy it before, we've just become a much more entitlement-happy society where people think they deserve things just for waking up in the morning.

    It's just not so.
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  8. #118
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    You think I don't know this? I'm still struggling to sell my work. I know the effort involved, and I know the risks. But it doesn't matter how many hundreds of hours you've put into a job, you don't get to collect a paycheck for the rest of your life, and then leave it to your estate for all of eternity when you die.
    Well, that's the thing. A hell of a lot of people do collect a paycheck for the rest of their lives. It's called a pension. Authors don't get that. And royalties to my work will not last for "eternity". My work is not that important, believe me. However, what if I had decided to use my creativity to build a small business of some kind, which earned profits over the years. Then I die. Does my business now belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs? How about if I have an anuity, which pays off over several decades, and I die before I've received it all. Does the rest of that money belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs?

    That's not how it works, that's not how it should work, and the fact that people are arguing that it should is goddamned ridiculous. It's a crowning testament to the power of corporate propaganda that people think it's even remotely reasonable, from either a moral perspective or an economic one, for copyrights to last for centuries.
    My copyrights last for my lifetime plus 50 years. Trust me, I'm not now nor will I ever be old enough for those suckers to last for centuries! Besides, when my publisher decides to stop publishing my works in any venue, royalties will stop. After 7 years, I or my heirs can ask for the copyrights to be returned. Then I or my heirs can attempt to resell them because they are my property or the property of my estate. As I've said, people can be mad all they want, but that's just the way it is. No author pension plans; just a toss of the dice with possible future royalties, pittance though they may be.

  9. #119
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    How do copyright laws affect the economy as a whole is my question...can't vote.

  10. #120
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    Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Well, that's the thing. A hell of a lot of people do collect a paycheck for the rest of their lives. It's called a pension.
    Yeah, when's the last time you heard of anyone except a State employee or a Union employee getting a pension? You're supposed to invest for your retirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    However, what if I had decided to use my creativity to build a small business of some kind, which earned profits over the years. Then I die. Does my business now belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs? How about if I have an anuity, which pays off over several decades, and I die before I've received it all. Does the rest of that money belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs?
    If you leave your heirs a small business, they still have to keep producing goods or services to make money. What do your heirs do to earn your royalties?

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