View Poll Results: How long should a copyright last before the I.P. becomes public domain?

Voters
105. You may not vote on this poll
  • There should be no such thing as a copyright.

    6 5.71%
  • 1-20 years after intellectual property is created

    19 18.10%
  • 21-40 years after intellectual property is created

    2 1.90%
  • 41-60 years after intellectual property is created

    1 0.95%
  • The copyright should last as long as the creator of the intellectual property is still alive

    24 22.86%
  • 1-20 after the original creator of the intellectual property has died

    14 13.33%
  • 21-40 after the original creator of the intellectual property has died

    3 2.86%
  • 41-60 after the original creator of the intellectual property has died

    3 2.86%
  • The copyright on the intellectual property should last forever (a perpetual copyright.)

    20 19.05%
  • other idea or I do not know(please specify)

    13 12.38%
Page 12 of 20 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 195

Thread: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

  1. #111
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    You mean like people borrow books from the library? Or rent DVDs? Publishers have tried to stop that, too. Doesn't make them any less of a public service.
    Those are in no way the same as pirating, especially considering that you have to give them back.

    How is it childish to note that only a small minority of illegal downloads are real lost sales and that piracy may, in fact, contribute to legal sales?
    That is a different point.

    And if the pirates really wouldn't have paid for it anyway, in what possible fashion has piracy harmed the industry?
    First, the very claim that they wouldn't have paid for it anyway is suspect.

    And it's contradictory, because the "noble" characterization is that the "good" pirates would "contribute," as you put it.

    I don't know how you can have it both ways, actually.

    Besides you know -- I've seen your posts -- that if free copying and distribution is made legal, everyone will stop paying. Or at least the very few who would contribute voluntarily won't be enough to support someone creating content.

    And are you really trying to argue that the only people who should have knowledge and culture are people who can afford whatever price the market demands?
    Ummmmm . . . no.


    Yes, quite. I may consider free distribution to be a public service, but I acknowledge that without some mechanism for profit, the kind of entertainment (and research) that I enjoy and benefit from immensely would be impossible. People need to understand this.
    Then I don't get why you're all over me above. I'm arguing against legalized unlimited free copying and distribution.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  2. #112
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,336

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    How is it childish to note that only a small minority of illegal downloads are real lost sales and that piracy may, in fact, contribute to legal sales? And if the pirates really wouldn't have paid for it anyway, in what possible fashion has piracy harmed the industry?
    It shouldn't matter if one person or the whole universe benefits from the distribution of intellectual property. It should be up to the owner of the property to decide its distribution. Like it or not, profit benefits mankind by providing an inventive to produce new and improved commodities.

    Some owners of property do make it public domain. I use Open Office in lieu of Office, and GIMP in lieu of Photoshop. Both are public domain by choice of the originators.

  3. #113
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    I do agree - 1 year IS too short. I think something closer to what the original U.S laws were PLUS an option to extend the rights to individual works in some manner [in a limited fashion, of course, and on a per-work basis] would be a good start.

    People are logically, reasonably opposed to how the system works now, have legitimate beefs, and legitimate ideas about how to change it. The fact that some of you can't see that, and insist on painting anybody opposed to SOPA, or anyone who wants the system revised as proponents of piracy when in fact that is unsubstantiated is amazing, and makes debating the issue impossible.
    I am a proponent of piracy. I don't believe that non-commercial infringement should be a civil or criminal offense, or at the very least that the term of copyright protection for non-commercial use should be much shorter than the term for commercial use; in that case I would actually say that one year from date of publication or initial release is a reasonable period, as long as restrictions on commercial use were kept in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Wouldn't a copyright, or a patent, lasting for the life of the creator seriously limit the market for the product, since there is no guarantee that the rights would last past today.
    Yes, it would. That's why I argue for a "whichever is longer" clause, so that copyrights and patents would apply at least for twenty years.

  4. #114
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Those are in no way the same as pirating, especially considering that you have to give them back.
    They are very much the same thing. They allow you to examine and use the material, for free or at low cost, before deciding whether or not to purchase it. They allow countless people to make use of the IP with only a single entity-- in this case, the library-- purchasing a legal copy. Libraries even sell their copies of used books and used DVDs when demand for them drops off, and the publishers never see a dime of that money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    First, the very claim that they wouldn't have paid for it anyway is suspect.

    And it's contradictory, because the "noble" characterization is that the "good" pirates would "contribute," as you put it.

    I don't know how you can have it both ways, actually.
    My ability to obtain free copies has not prevented me from making a single purchase I otherwise would have made, and has in fact led me to making many purchases I otherwise would not have made because I would not have been exposed to the material or considered purchasing it before I downloaded it. I am a pirate, and I contribute, and I contribute again by convincing others to purchase materials they would not have heard of had I not downloaded them illegally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Besides you know -- I've seen your posts -- that if free copying and distribution is made legal, everyone will stop paying. Or at least the very few who would contribute voluntarily won't be enough to support someone creating content.
    I've never argued that. I've argued that if we didn't have some form of copyright protection, it would be impossible for content creators to make a profit. There's a very big difference between a physical copy of a book and a digital copy of a book, and most people will pay extra for a physical copy; I absolutely believe that the author, designer, or inventor should have exclusive commercial rights to his work for a limited time, and that this period should be considerably longer than one year.

    In fact there are business models in which I believe intellectual property creators can continue to profit while their works are freely distributed, and I advocate for them. I applaud companies like Paizo and Baen that are taking the initiative to explore those models-- and thriving while doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Ummmmm . . . no.
    "Well if they wouldn't [pay for it], then they don't deserve to have it. Period."

    Those were your exact words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then I don't get why you're all over me above. I'm arguing against legalized unlimited free copying and distribution.
    You're also attempting to morally equate piracy with theft and ignoring the public good it creates, and arguing in favor of the ridiculously inflated copyright durations under the current law. Your arguments are contributing to the general atmosphere of stupidity that surrounds this issue and prevents society from seeking rational, equitable solutions that serve everyone's best interests rather than insane and self-destructive policies like SOPA/PIPA on the creators' side and abolishing copyright altogether (or limiting it to a ridiculously short period) on the consumers' side.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    It shouldn't matter if one person or the whole universe benefits from the distribution of intellectual property. It should be up to the owner of the property to decide its distribution. Like it or not, profit benefits mankind by providing an inventive to produce new and improved commodities.
    You think I'm some kind of socialist, opposed to the private pursuit of profits? You couldn't be further from the truth. Copyright is a restriction on the free market, a temporary government-granted monopoly that exists for the sole purpose you just described-- to benefit mankind by creating a profit incentive for artists and inventors. But the key words there are "temporary" and "restriction"; copyright laws are an imposition on the free market for the public good, and should thus only be tolerated to the extent that they serve the public good.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Some owners of property do make it public domain. I use Open Office in lieu of Office, and GIMP in lieu of Photoshop. Both are public domain by choice of the originators.
    No, they're not. Open Office and GIMP are both licensed under the terms of the GNU Public License which has strict terms concerning the uses of licensed materials. Under current copyright law, the earliest instances of open-source software licensed under the GPL won't enter the public domain until the early 22nd century.

  5. #115
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    They are very much the same thing. They allow you to examine and use the material, for free or at low cost, before deciding whether or not to purchase it. They allow countless people to make use of the IP with only a single entity-- in this case, the library-- purchasing a legal copy. Libraries even sell their copies of used books and used DVDs when demand for them drops off, and the publishers never see a dime of that money.
    They aren't, because you don't get to keep a library book or a rental DVD, and no extra copy is made.

    This idea that people download and copy songs and movies because they're "trying before buying" -- you really think that's why it's done, on the whole? Really?



    My ability to obtain free copies has not prevented me from making a single purchase I otherwise would have made, and has in fact led me to making many purchases I otherwise would not have made because I would not have been exposed to the material or considered purchasing it before I downloaded it. I am a pirate, and I contribute, and I contribute again by convincing others to purchase materials they would not have heard of had I not downloaded them illegally.
    If you have some kind of code of ethics, that doesn't mean the general population does.


    I've never argued that. I've argued that if we didn't have some form of copyright protection, it would be impossible for content creators to make a profit. There's a very big difference between a physical copy of a book and a digital copy of a book, and most people will pay extra for a physical copy; I absolutely believe that the author, designer, or inventor should have exclusive commercial rights to his work for a limited time, and that this period should be considerably longer than one year.
    There are no commercial rights worth spit if anyone and everyone can have it, legally, for free.

    Let's put it another way -- technology exists to cheaply and effectively print money; the real cost is near zero. No one loses money from their own pockets if I print off a stack of 100s. Should this be allowed?

    Of course not. You know why. The exact same problem happens with IP (or anything else, really). If it's generally available for free, it's commercially worthless.


    In fact there are business models in which I believe intellectual property creators can continue to profit while their works are freely distributed, and I advocate for them. I applaud companies like Paizo and Baen that are taking the initiative to explore those models-- and thriving while doing so.
    OK, fine -- but that doesn't do anything other than provide a channel some find acceptable. It's not a reason for everyone else to give it away for free.


    "Well if they wouldn't [pay for it], then they don't deserve to have it. Period."

    Those were your exact words.
    Yes, in reference to people who, purportedly, would never pay for content under any circumstances.

    There are things they can have that people are willing to give them. But if not, if the only way to get something is to pay, then their unwillingness to pay precludes them from having it, and it should.



    You're also attempting to morally equate piracy with theft and ignoring the public good it creates, and arguing in favor of the ridiculously inflated copyright durations under the current law.
    Where did I do that? I made one comment about duration. It's toward the beginning of the thread. That's what I said about it. Not what you're accusing me of.


    Your arguments are contributing to the general atmosphere of stupidity that surrounds this issue and prevents society from seeking rational, equitable solutions that serve everyone's best interests rather than insane and self-destructive policies like SOPA/PIPA on the creators' side and abolishing copyright altogether (or limiting it to a ridiculously short period) on the consumers' side.
    Well, yours are as well. Content creators and copyright holders are going to cling tighter every time they see someone arguing for unlimited free distribution of their work. Sorry; that's just not a reasonable position.

    Quicker routes to the public domain? Maybe. Legalized free distribution from the getgo? Never. If you really want reasonable discourse and a compromise, you're going to have to let that go.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #116
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,755

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Less than 20 years. Copyright should not be an excuse to stop working, just because you have one really good idea. You should have the potential to profit from your ideas, but not for a long period of time. You have to keep thinking and coming up with new ideas.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  7. #117
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    They aren't, because you don't get to keep a library book or a rental DVD, and no extra copy is made.
    How exactly does that make a difference? How many times do you read a book or watch a movie before you're done with it? You're getting just as much use out of it as someone who paid for it, and you can always borrow it again. It's the exact same thing; you are reading a book or watching a movie without having paid for the privilege. Your library card is just as much a "lost sale" for the publishers as my Internet connection is-- and the publishers know it, but they can't afford the PR from attacking the libraries the same way they're attacking piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    There are no commercial rights worth spit if anyone and everyone can have it, legally, for free.
    Sure there are. People prefer physical copies, and you can make good money selling add-on services or other accessories that can't be digitally reproduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Where did I do that? I made one comment about duration. It's toward the beginning of the thread. That's what I said about it. Not what you're accusing me of.
    Then I do apologize. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the tone of an argument and its content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Well, yours are as well. Content creators and copyright holders are going to cling tighter every time they see someone arguing for unlimited free distribution of their work. Sorry; that's just not a reasonable position.

    Quicker routes to the public domain? Maybe. Legalized free distribution from the getgo? Never. If you really want reasonable discourse and a compromise, you're going to have to let that go.
    I'm actually quite willing to let that go; I don't even want it. I just think that there should be a legal difference in the penalties between commercial and non-commercial infringement, and that non-commercial distribution should become legal much sooner-- well outside the profit cycle of most entertainment media and practically all software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Less than 20 years. Copyright should not be an excuse to stop working, just because you have one really good idea. You should have the potential to profit from your ideas, but not for a long period of time. You have to keep thinking and coming up with new ideas.
    Twenty years really is the bare minimum, and I think sole authors should have the option to renew protection for the duration of their life. If an author's going to be able to live off of one book for the rest of their lives, it's going to be because they made millions of dollars off of that book within its first few years. Copyright isn't just about the ability to make profits from a single work, it's about the ability to restrict derivative works-- which is the main reason authors want it to last so long and also the main reason why the terms should be limited in the first place.

  8. #118
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    How exactly does that make a difference? How many times do you read a book or watch a movie before you're done with it? You're getting just as much use out of it as someone who paid for it, and you can always borrow it again. It's the exact same thing; you are reading a book or watching a movie without having paid for the privilege. Your library card is just as much a "lost sale" for the publishers as my Internet connection is-- and the publishers know it, but they can't afford the PR from attacking the libraries the same way they're attacking piracy.
    Well, we're obviously not going to agree on this, but I will say -- if a library or a rental outfit has it, the publisher at least made A sale.

    Besides, most DVD/video rental places, by contract, share revenues with the publishers. The big ones absolutely do.


    Sure there are. People prefer physical copies
    Not for music, they don't, and less and less so for movies/video.


    and you can make good money selling add-on services or other accessories that can't be digitally reproduced.
    For some things, maybe, but not for the bulk of what's covered by copyright.



    Then I do apologize. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the tone of an argument and its content.
    Appreciated.



    I'm actually quite willing to let that go; I don't even want it. I just think that there should be a legal difference in the penalties between commercial and non-commercial infringement, and that non-commercial distribution should become legal much sooner-- well outside the profit cycle of most entertainment media and practically all software.
    Those are reasonable areas to explore.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 01-22-12 at 07:35 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #119
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Besides, most DVD/video rental places, by contract, share revenues with the publishers. The big ones absolutely do.
    I did not know that, and it surprises me. What is the incentive for the video rental places to do that, when the DVDs are available for purchase on the same date?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Those are reasonable areas to explore.
    What would you consider a reasonable time period before allowing works to be distributed for free, separate from entering the public domain and being available for commercial use?

  10. #120
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: How long should a copyright last before it becomes public domain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    I did not know that, and it surprises me. What is the incentive for the video rental places to do that, when the DVDs are available for purchase on the same date?
    They get them in bulk and pay a much lower price than retail; people don't usually purchase a DVD on their first viewing of a movie.


    What would you consider a reasonable time period before allowing works to be distributed for free, separate from entering the public domain and being available for commercial use?
    As I said in post #2, I can see arguments from 20 years up to the life of the author. (I don't see a need for it after the author's death.)

    But I still maintain that distribution for free is functionally the same as public domain.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 01-22-12 at 07:53 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

Page 12 of 20 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •