View Poll Results: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

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Thread: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I understand that your opinion is that parenting is the only factor, however I can tell that you are a reasonable person and know that inherited wealth is also very important... as a wise person once said "it takes money to make money"

    Please, it is not my opinion that "parenting is the only factor", I clearly stated that it was the single-most important factor. That was and remains my opinion.

    I do not wish to see the playing field leveled. I only wish to see everyone start from the same starting line, in so far as inherited tangible assets are concerned. This is a very doable proposition. It only takes a majority to agree upon such a proposition to see it realized.



    There will only never be equal opportunity in so far as equality of starting points of inheritance is concerned, if everyone agrees that it would be a good thing for society. We must not settle ourselves into feeling hopeless on the matter; if we do, we have already lost the battle.

    I agree that it is a battle, but I disagree with your tactics. After all, children will still be raised by their parents. While you believe in a financial remedy, I believe the problem lies elsewhere. The proper socialization and instillation of work and study ethics is the only way the poor will be given a real chance to succeed.


    I completely agree with you as far as parenting is concerned - good parenting, while not the only factor, is a huge factor and I will do my utmost to ensure my children's sucess as well. I think all loving parents wish this for their children.

    Still, we must not surrender ourselves hopeless on the equal opportunity front. Society can do what it wants if everyone bands together

    Agreed
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  2. #52
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I agree that equality of education, esp. according to students needs, is important.

    However, for the purposes of this thread, equal opportunity was essentially defined as:

    "the freedom to start the race of life on the same foot, i.e. on the same starting line (with equal levels of tangible assets when starting out in life)" please remember that this does not mean equality of outcome - I am very against equality of outcome as this would eliminate competition and competition is needed for a healthy society (at least that is my opinion).

    Therefore, equal opportunity (as defined in the OP) goes beyond education and I am asking whether or not equal opportunity (as defined above and in the OP) is best for society.
    In theory, EO by that definition would be good because everyone would have the same starting chance to succeed. However, in order to get everyone the same tangible assets and such, someone would have to pay for it and it would just cause a lot of tension and like you said it would eliminate competition. Both of those things are pretty bad.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Please, it is not my opinion that "parenting is the only factor", I clearly stated that it was the single-most important factor. That was and remains my opinion.
    OK, my mistake ... let me just say that it just sounded like it was the only factor you were willing to entertain - however, you've clarified that you believe it is the "single-most important factor"

    My response is, as mentioned before, that it is the most important factor in so far as guiding a child given the cards they have been handed; however, in so far as financial and other tangible assets are concerned, an effort for societal change is needed in order to ensure equal opportunity in the tangible asset area, i.e. ensuring that all start out on equal footing; what happens after that initial starting point should be up to each individual

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    I agree that it is a battle, but I disagree with your tactics. After all, children will still be raised by their parents. While you believe in a financial remedy, I believe the problem lies elsewhere. The proper socialization and instillation of work and study ethics is the only way the poor will be given a real chance to succeed.
    Now here is where you are not understanding me. You really don't understand my "tactics" (as you would say). As I have said or alluded to before, I believe that without proper parenting, an individual is truly at a disadvantage and thus as far as I am concerned, from this viewpoint, it is the parents responsibility to ensure proper parenting.

    Thus I do not believe that a "financial remedy" is the cure for ensuring equal opportunity. Instead, I believe that in addition to proper parenting, citizens should put forth an effort to ensure that all citizens start out on equal footing in so far as tangible assets (e.g. finances, land ownership, education etc.) are concerned. This would ensure that each citizen would start from the same tangible asset starting line. And let me ask you this ... would you expect racers to start from different starting lines in a race? My guess is your answer would be no. Thus, why would we expect citizens to start from different starting lines?

    Of course, this would not ensure equality of outcome and I do not believe that it should (i.e. I do not believe in forced equality of outcome).

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Agreed
    Well, it appears we have found some amount of common ground then ... aye?

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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    OK, my mistake ... let me just say that it just sounded like it was the only factor you were willing to entertain - however, you've clarified that you believe it is the "single-most important factor"

    My response is, as mentioned before, that it is the most important factor in so far as guiding a child given the cards they have been handed; however, in so far as financial and other tangible assets are concerned, an effort for societal change is needed in order to ensure equal opportunity in the tangible asset area, i.e. ensuring that all start out on equal footing; what happens after that initial starting point should be up to each individual



    Now here is where you are not understanding me. You really don't understand my "tactics" (as you would say). As I have said or alluded to before, I believe that without proper parenting, an individual is truly at a disadvantage and thus as far as I am concerned, from this viewpoint, it is the parents responsibility to ensure proper parenting.

    Thus I do not believe that a "financial remedy" is the cure for ensuring equal opportunity. Instead, I believe that in addition to proper parenting, citizens should put forth an effort to ensure that all citizens start out on equal footing in so far as tangible assets (e.g. finances, land ownership, education etc.) are concerned. This would ensure that each citizen would start from the same tangible asset starting line. And let me ask you this ... would you expect racers to start from different starting lines in a race? My guess is your answer would be no. Thus, why would we expect citizens to start from different starting lines?

    Of course, this would not ensure equality of outcome and I do not believe that it should (i.e. I do not believe in forced equality of outcome).



    Well, it appears we have found some amount of common ground then ... aye?
    I think we are fundamentally divided by a classic conservative/liberal schism. You choose to believe that we are responsible for others to an extent where we disagree. I believe that we should be solely responsible for ourselves and our prodigy. We both agree that equality should be sought but, predictably perhaps, have different ideas on who to effectively achieve that goal.

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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    I don't really know. Let's actually achieve equal opportunity and see if it's enough. We're still a long way from being born into a specific race or gender not being a roadblock for many people, and until no one is born into poverty, we'll never be close.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    Equity cannot be achieved unless equity of parents or caregivers can be provided. In other words in cannot work. I live in the Czech Republic where the largest non-white minorities are Roma (gypsies) and Vietnamese. The contrast could not be greater. The Vietnamese come to CZ unable to speak Czech but work hard and send their children to local schools where they invariably excel. At a very early age they are taught to study hard and that ethic is enforced throughout their childhood. The Roma by contrast, start the first grade without command of the ABCs, numbers and other basic taught by most parents to their pre-school children. As a result they are sent to special schools because they cannot manage elementary school cirricula. Most stay at best semi-literate throughout their lives.

    I don't doubt that much of the income inequality in the US is for this very reason. In fact, I'm quite sure of it.
    Your points are well-taken, but in the US, much of it is because we have encouraged and bred a huge welfare system, and many of the kids coming out of that environment don't have much of a chance, primarily because they never knew anything else. It's a way of life here. The Vietnamese immigrants who come here generally do very well, just as has been your observation.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    I think we are fundamentally divided by a classic conservative/liberal schism.
    OK, I wasn't sure because you said "agreed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    You choose to believe that we are responsible for others to an extent where we disagree. I believe that we should be solely responsible for ourselves and our prodigy.
    Perhaps you understand my position and perhaps not. While I have an ethical value that says we should help others through charity, I believe that after an equal starting point, a simple societal safety net (similar to the one already in place, although I prefer one that would provide more motivation to pull out of said safety net) is all that we are responsible for in regards to responsibility to others; I don't know about you, but I would prefer not to out-compete my fellow humans to the point of allowing them to starve and or freeze to death. In my opinion, such an event would be akin to murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    We both agree that equality should be sought but, predictably perhaps, have different ideas on who to effectively achieve that goal.
    Perhaps... however, you have not completely explained why you feel that it is OK for people to start the race at different starting lines (in terms of tangible assets).

  8. #58
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    In theory, EO by that definition would be good because everyone would have the same starting chance to succeed.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    However, in order to get everyone the same tangible assets and such, someone would have to pay for it and it would just cause a lot of tension
    Tension may be the cost of equal opportunity :shrugs:
    Overall, I think that the total good it would do, may outweigh any bad feelings people may have about it ... then again, perhaps not. Perhaps society is not ready for this kind of equality of opportunity. Perhaps the majority of people are still archaic in their thinking, in which case something like this wouldn't work as a majority would be needed - a mass movement. On the other hand, the simple fact that some richy-rich people would be offended by it should not stop the majority from doing the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    and like you said it would eliminate competition.
    I never said that this would eliminate competition - I said that "equal outcome" would eliminate competition, not "equal opportunity". Equal opportunity may just enhance competition - this is actually an unknown factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Both of those things are pretty bad.
    Like I said, ticking people of is never fun, but if its the right thing to do and only a few wealthy people would be upset, that would not be a bad thing if we were doing the right thing overall.

    And as for the second "bad thing" - that is an unknown; we can only argue about whether or not equal opportunity would decrease or increase competition; thus far I have heard no compelling argument either way

    So actually, there does not appear to be anything bad overall with this proposal as of yet

  9. #59
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I don't really know. Let's actually achieve equal opportunity and see if it's enough. We're still a long way from being born into a specific race or gender not being a roadblock for many people, and until no one is born into poverty, we'll never be close.
    Lol ... are you proposing that no one be born into poverty? That is, are you proposing a communist state?

    Or... are you proposing that that is what I am proposing? Because I am definitely not proposing communism.

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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Your points are well-taken, but in the US, much of it is because we have encouraged and bred a huge welfare system, and many of the kids coming out of that environment don't have much of a chance, primarily because they never knew anything else. It's a way of life here. The Vietnamese immigrants who come here generally do very well, just as has been your observation.
    Yes it is sad really. Here in the USA, we actually punish people for getting out of the welfare system. Almost as if we want to keep people on welfare... the only reason I could think of that the corporations would want to do this would be to keep worker bees around, but who knows... it could be complete ignorance and incompetency on our government's part.

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