View Poll Results: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

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Thread: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    My two cents, FWIW. I believe that, as a society one of our primary economic/social goals should be EQUITY not EQUALITY. In other words, people should be given a generally level playing field and then, simply, get what they deserve. True equality, as many have stated here, is quite an unattainable goal......at least at the societal level.
    Equal opportunity has been redefined to mean something it doesn't.....
    We should all have the opportunity to gain knowledge relevant to employability based mostly on talent and individual effort.
    I would have kicked McCain, Gore, and Bush out of college for not making a suitable effort. If they don't have the desire and/or brains to compete, let them seek employment at a lower level. Legacy and entitlement are 2 faces of a counterfiet coin...
    Equal outcome is impossible and not worthy of discussion.
    Last edited by UtahBill; 01-21-12 at 09:29 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Trust me forced social equality was the basis for communism.
    Are you talking about historical attempts at communism or communism as a theory?
    Also, when you say "forced equality" are you talking about forced equal opportunity or forced equal outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    And you say you're talking about private ownership but how is that possible if there is a committee that enforces financial equality?
    Again, when you say "enforced equality" are you talking about enforced equal opportunity or enforced equal outcome?
    I am, of course, referring to enforced equal opportunity (as define in the OP); I am against equal outcome
    As with any form of government, some of the ownership would, at some point, become public, but quickly become private again. I am also talking theoretically and experimentally; trust me, I do not pretend to know all the answers; as with anything, a group effort to create a system is key to success. I am proposing that when someone dies, their assets be given to the public to be distributed evenly to the next generation, so that in this light, everyone starts out on in life equally. How they manage their money and how much they acquire would be up to each individual. Of course within the system, regulations would have to be in place to prevent monopolies, which is crucial in maintaining competition. I am also proposing that gifts from family and nepotism be highly restricted.

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I'm not against equal opportunity rather your definition of it.
    Right .... and your definition of it would be .. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    A one time distribution to create an equal opportunity start would not be financially fair to those who can provide more because you would have to limit their parental control.
    While it may seem "unfair", especially because we are all used to inheritance, I believe it would be quite the opposite; indeed, it would be extremely fair

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Also the public system and social safety nets already attempt to create an equal start to education and basic care as much as possible.
    The key phrase there is "as much as possible", when the phrase should be: "to the degree that we still keep the overwhelming majority of the rich rich and poor poor". In other words, the wealthy want to make sure that their children do well regardless of their capabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I'm not sure in such a wealthy nation we do a great job of it but there has to be a cutoff point.
    A cutoff point to creating equality of opportunity? That idea is scary and what is holding our country back. If we continue with the same old, same old, change will never be realized. Instead, we will still see a government run by wealthy corporate individuals, the majority of which would still have questionable competence due to the lack of equal opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Your advocating a utopian society which though noble is not completely fair in a competitive system.
    utopian defined:

    Modeled on or aiming for a state in which everything is perfect; idealistic.

    https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...w=1252&bih=546

    The key word in that definition as I see it is the word "aiming"; yes that's right, I believe that when building a society, we should strive perfection, even if it is not attainable; this would keep us on our toes and always making progress.

    Indeed, equal opportunity, this would be, by definition, fair.

    While competition is important, the simple fact that our society should be competitive does not make equal opportunity "unfair".

  3. #33
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    To the bolded: Hell, it's not even a possibility. Human creativity, motivation, and self-will would overcome any attemtps to create an "equal" society.
    Have you even been reading the posts? Who said anything about an "equal society"?

  4. #34
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The good intention is there and might be some truth to it but you have to learn history before you attempt to remake similar mistakes. As lizzie pointed out evolution will overcome any attempts to change the natural order but we can do a better job with the current system.
    This is so true. History is important. Is is also important to recognize what has been done before and what hasn't. Simply because something sounds similar to ideas that have happened in the past does not mean that it has actually happened in the past. This has been one of the American public's biggest mistakes.

    Also, the "natural order" (as most people define it) is something that we change on a daily basis. Everyone on debatepolitics would likely be dead if we hadn't intervened with "the natural order". The problem is that people do not realize that there really is no "natural order" as defined by most people. What is natural, is what happens. Nature has no rules stating that this should happen and this should happen and so on. Environments are the result of an interaction between organisms and matter nothing more and nothing less.

    Still, I am interested ... how do you define natural? ... Perhaps a new post could be started for this "natural order" topic?

  5. #35
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Well, I'm sure you know what they say about the road to hell and good intentions.
    Nice colloquialism ... are you saying that you have bad intentions?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Personally, I think that evolution is a good thing, and I don't think it's linked in the least little bit to equality, either of outcome or opportunity. It's those who strive and achieve that provide the basis for others to become competitive. If you want to see a stop put to human evolution, just put out feed troughs and flop-houses, and force everyone to live there. Communism is the biggest disincentive for human growth and potential that I know of.
    I've already addressed another poster's misguided ideas about what evolution means, and if people do not understand it perhaps we should start a new post for it?

    Also, who said anything about communism? If you want to talk about communism, start another post, as this post is about equal opportunity.

  6. #36
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    My two cents, FWIW. I believe that, as a society one of our primary economic/social goals should be EQUITY not EQUALITY.
    I agree wholeheartedly. I am not for equality of outcome ... however, I am very much for equality of opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    In other words, people should be given a generally level playing field and then, simply, get what they deserve.
    You see, that's were we start to disagree - there is not even a "generally level playing field" right now, and I am for a completely level playing field as far as at birth inherited assets are concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    True equality, as many have stated here, is quite an unattainable goal......at least at the societal level.
    I agree, true equality is not attainable, and even if it was I would be against it. If everything were forced to be equal, there would be no incentive to compete. However, I am totally for allowing everyone to start the race from the same starting point. And as far as assets are concerned, this is completely attainable.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    equal opportunity is not possible. some will always be born into more readily available opportunity.
    I disagree; we are the only one's disallowing equal opportunity from being realized. It is only impossible if we do not desire it to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    we need an economic ladder with the lower middle rungs restored, and we need safety nets.
    I completely agree with this statement

  8. #38
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    We should all have the opportunity to gain knowledge relevant to employability based mostly on talent and individual effort.
    Well said and I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I would have kicked McCain, Gore, and Bush out of college for not making a suitable effort. If they don't have the desire and/or brains to compete, let them seek employment at a lower level.
    Again, we are totally on the same page .. finally someone who is level headed

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Legacy and entitlement are 2 faces of a counterfiet coin...
    Not sure what you mean here ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Equal outcome is impossible and not worthy of discussion.
    I totally agree

  9. #39
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Yes, equal opportunity, meaning equality to the law, not equal talents and social status.

  10. #40
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Well said and I agree



    Again, we are totally on the same page .. finally someone who is level headed



    Not sure what you mean here ... ?



    I totally agree
    Legacy is what gets people like McCain, Gore, Bush, into Harvard, Yale, etc.
    Entitlement, the negative aspect of it, is when some of us demand results without effort, a degree without education, a high paying job without matching performance. I have worked for some good people over the years, and some idiots who got promoted far beyond their level of competence. That's the way it is, I guess....
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