View Poll Results: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

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  • Yes

    37 75.51%
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    12 24.49%
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Thread: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    You can't take out the human nature element in any discussion of equality
    Never tried to

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    whether it be equality of opportunity, or equality of outcomes.
    I'll try saying it again and maybe it will stick this time ... "equal opportunity" is not the same thing as "equal outcome" (I am for the first, not the latter)

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    In the world you describe, humans would have to amount to computers without any will of their own.
    Unfortunately, I described no world, only a set of policies, in that set of policies, humans would act just as they would in any system ... they would act like humans ... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No matter how equal the opportunity in property and goods, society would be just as it is now.
    Not if such property and goods were equal for each new generation - you see this would remove the whole inherited wealth factor

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It's not equality that makes us what we are. It's human nature and the many facets of it's manifestation.
    I agree, equality does not make a human a human ... a human makes a human a human ... its really quite simple, lol!

  2. #22
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Dreams are all individualized.
    Very true

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Creativity is inherent.
    Very true

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Reality must exist within the context of its perceivers.
    Could not agree more... wow, I think we are on the same page

  3. #23
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Not quite

    the following is communism:

    A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs

    and

    Any political philosophy or ideology advocating holding the production of resources collectively; Any political social system that implements a communist political philosophy; The international socialist society where classes and the state no longer exist

    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=comm...w=1252&bih=546

    I am talking about private ownership of certain goods and production, not public
    I am talking about a system where classes still exist



    So are you saying that equal opportunity is bad for society because it would mean that there would be just enough for everyone (upon birth that is ... remember, this is only a one time distribution ... at least in this scenario), leading to a lack in motivation to move forward?

    If this is the case, why wouldn't we start everyone out (remember just starting people out) with just enough to survive, but still providing them with motivation to move up?

    Remember this is an experimental question - this is about whether equal opportunity (as defined in the OP) would be good for society - please do not assume any specific model (such as communism)

    Try thinking about how things could both work and fail, then you'll be contributing to new ideas - this requires stepping outside of the box - thinking new
    Trust me forced social equality was the basis for communism. And you say you're talking about private ownership but how is that possible if there is a committee that enforces financial equality? I'm not against equal opportunity rather your definition of it. A one time distribution to create an equal opportunity start would not be financially fair to those who can provide more because you would have to limit their parental control. Also the public system and social safety nets already attempt to create an equal start to education and basic care as much as possible. I'm not sure in such a wealthy nation we do a great job of it but there has to be a cutoff point. Your advocating a utopian society which though noble is not completely fair in a competitive system.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #24
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Trust me forced social equality was the basis for communism. And you say you're talking about private ownership but how is that possible if there is a committee that enforces financial equality? I'm not against equal opportunity rather your definition of it. A one time distribution to create an equal opportunity start would not be financially fair to those who can provide more because you would have to limit their parental control. Also the public system and social safety nets already attempt to create an equal start to education and basic care as much as possible. I'm not sure in such a wealthy nation we do a great job of it but there has to be a cutoff point. Your advocating a utopian society which though noble is not completely fair in a competitive system.
    To the bolded: Hell, it's not even a possibility. Human creativity, motivation, and self-will would overcome any attemtps to create an "equal" society.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  5. #25
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    To the bolded: Hell, it's not even a possibility. Human creativity, motivation, and self-will would overcome any attemtps to create an "equal" society.
    The good intention is there and might be some truth to it but you have to learn history before you attempt to remake similar mistakes. As lizzie pointed out evolution will overcome any attempts to change the natural order but we can do a better job with the current system.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  6. #26
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    Well, I'm sure you know what they say about the road to hell and good intentions.

    Personally, I think that evolution is a good thing, and I don't think it's linked in the least little bit to equality, either of outcome or opportunity. It's those who strive and achieve that provide the basis for others to become competitive. If you want to see a stop put to human evolution, just put out feed troughs and flop-houses, and force everyone to live there. Communism is the biggest disincentive for human growth and potential that I know of.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  7. #27
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    My two cents, FWIW. I believe that, as a society one of our primary economic/social goals should be EQUITY not EQUALITY. In other words, people should be given a generally level playing field and then, simply, get what they deserve. True equality, as many have stated here, is quite an unattainable goal......at least at the societal level.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  8. #28
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    You left out 'Adequate Opportunity' as a choice; and, it would be my choice. When you are considering people achieving equal is impossible; and, in this case 'opportunity' not desirable. A guess of mine is that when most people say 'Equal Opportunity' they actually mean 'Adequate Opportunity'.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    equal opportunity is not possible. some will always be born into more readily available opportunity.

    we need an economic ladder with the lower middle rungs restored, and we need safety nets.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

    It seems most are looking at equal opportunity from the wrong angle. Equal opportunity should not be judged by individual circumstances but by government policy. We have equal opportunity when no race, sex, age, economic class or other tangible attribute is restricted or given preferential treatment by any level of government.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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