Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

Blackdog said:

No. I don't support public education either, but at this point it is a necessary evil.

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Wow, that's just ridiculous.

Tigger said:

No Communications. No Liberal Arts.

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As if those don't ever lead to careers.

MusicAdventurer said:

Should everyone have access to all types of college education and degrees regardless of their financial status and should the only factor that should be considered when allowing access to college education and degrees be their ability to complete such academic curriculum?

Or should only those who can afford a college education or those select few who receive scholarships be allowed access to college education and thus, one’s financial status should be considered in addition to one’s ability to complete academic curriculum?

What option did you pick or which one best reflects your beliefs and why?

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I think it'd be a good idea in general if there were greater opportunities for poor people to gain access to higher education. I do not think it's either possible or necessarily a completely good idea to entirely level the playing field in this area. Private universities will do what they want, and more power to them. The smarter ones recognize that there's some value in financing the education of exceptionally bright poor people, thus creating more opportunities for such people. Public universities, by contrast, are creatures of the state and have a much greater obligation to provide relatively equal access to the extent that such a thing is possible (more on this shortly).

"The" issue for acceptance isn't, and shouldn't be solely anything. Ability to complete a degree is certainly relevant, but probably a lot less important than the relative merits of various applicants - not just "can they do the work?" but also "how well?" and "what else are they bringing to our educational community?"

Re: whether or not wealth should be taken into account as an admissions practice, it depends what you mean. There aren't currently very many universities that directly and explicitly consider ability to pay when they're making their admissions decisions (the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Brown, and I'm not sure they still do this anymore). Obviously inability to pay is a complete bar to attending a university whether you've been accepted or not. However, one's relative affluence shows up in the admissions process in other, more subtle ways. In particular, well off parents can afford private SAT tutors, SAT classes, AP prep and all sorts of other goodies that give their offspring a huge competitive advantage. They can afford to send their children to language camps, and invest in sporting equipment, musical instruments, etc, all of which give their kid an edge when applying to college. This is both problematic (in some ways) and completely reasonable (in others). On the one hand, it's obviously not fair to poor kids that they have a statistically worse chance of getting good SAT scores just because they couldn't shell out $3k to pay for a tutor, and universities are getting skewed information about the relative merits of our hypothetical affluent vs poor applicant. On the other hand, it wouldn't be any more fair for parents not to be able to use every resource at their disposal to do the best they can to ensure the future well-being of their children. That's what parents are supposed to do, and it's a good thing.

My solution, overall? Focus more attention on primary and secondary education (not necessarily more money, but certainly better spent money), institute state programs to provide free or low cost programs for enterprising low-income children to take advantage of (e.g. SAT classes, music classes, etc), and finance the hell out of the public university system to at least stop the current trend of ballooning costs (Berkeley, my alma mater, is like three times as expensive now as it was when I attended it slightly over a decade ago), and ideally to reduce the tuition burden on students.

Jerry said:

When you say "free" you actually mean "tax-payer funded", because it costs something even if the student isn't the one paying the bill. In which case, I would base funding off of academic performance.

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Isn't that what scholarships already do?

liblady said:

what's wrong with being a plumber?

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Mach said:

So plumbers are where people end up if they aim low? Tell those working joes how you really feel....

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Are either of you plumbers? If so then yes, you aimed low in life. Sorry to be the first to break it to you. There's nothing wrong with the profession itself. However, I have higher ambitions not only for myself but also for my children. If that's how you feed yourselves, please by any means pumpkins, however don't expect me to act like it's anything more than the kind of employment people who don't aim too high in life end up with. :shrug:

misterman said:

As if those don't ever lead to careers.

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There is no DIRECT career path from that degree to a job opportunity. I can't say that I've ever seen a job advertisement for a LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR or COMMUNICATIONS MAJOR. Yes, there are associated career fields that one may be able to get into, but for the most part there is no DIRECT career path linked to those degrees. My parents were (rightfully so) not interested in investing wads of cash into a degree that had no DIRECT CAREER PATH assocaited with it.

Out of that, they got....

1. CAD Designer/Drafter
2. Director of Christian Education/Youth Services
3. Biology Professor/Researcher

How does "equal opportunity" = "free college"? And who's to say college may not have limited some peoples education or initiative? I've got an old friend with 15 yrs of college and he's a snob, lazy and sometimes moron.

Hatuey said:

Are either of you plumbers? If so then yes, you aimed low in life. Sorry to be the first to break it to you.

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I hope you remember that the next time you need one of them to deal with a broken pipe or something similar in your home. I'd suggest telling them all about that before they do the work.

Boo Radley said:

true. The real question is tax payer funded a better way to make sure we get more educated and functioning in soceity than we're doing now.

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If the student does nothing to earn his way through collecg it is likely the education willnot have any value to him.

If you let most people go to college you will have people disrupting the class and screwing off so how will that help the other students?

Tigger said:

I hope you remember that the next time you need one of them to deal with a broken pipe or something similar in your home. I'd suggest telling them all about that before they do the work.

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That would work well, hey pal you aimed low now fix my crapper. He'd probably use your head as a toilet brush...lol

Tigger said:

I hope you remember that the next time you need one of them to deal with a broken pipe or something similar in your home. I'd suggest telling them all about that before they do the work.

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I don't really talk to the help. Do you?

Hatuey said:

Are either of you plumbers? If so then yes, you aimed low in life. Sorry to be the first to break it to you. There's nothing wrong with the profession itself. However, I have higher ambitions not only for myself but also for my children. If that's how you feed yourselves, please by any means pumpkins, however don't expect me to act like it's anything more than the kind of employment people who don't aim too high in life end up with. :shrug:

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Bet you'll think more of plumbers when you're kneed-deep in crap someday and you need one to fix your leak.

Oh, and the average income of a plumber is $49K, which is right at the median income of the U.S.

Hatuey said:

I don't really talk to the help. Do you?

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You're smart to keep your mouth shut when you're being smug and arrogant. People like you who yap too much, except on anonymous boards, tend to have really expensive problems with their pipes.

misterman said:

Bet you'll think more of plumbers when you're kneed-deep in crap someday and you need one to fix your leak.

Oh, and the average income of a plumber is $49K, which is right at the median income of the U.S.

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Lol is that supposed to mean something to me? Unlike a certain lawyer on these boards, I don't really feel the need to plaster my income for all to see. However, if that plumber saved up every paycheck and didn't pay a single dollar in taxes, his $49K would pay for around 1/10th of the property that I own in St. Maarten (that's an island in the Caribbean). I won't even go into how much my house in Canada is worth.

misterman said:

You're smart to keep your mouth shut when you're being smug and arrogant. People like you who yap too much, except on anonymous boards, tend to have really expensive problems with their pipes.

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Are you a plumber? I'm sorry to hear you aimed so low in life.

Hatuey said:

Lol is that supposed to mean something to me? Unlike a certain lawyer on these boards, I don't really feel the need to plaster my income for all to see.

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It means that plumbers are not "aiming low." They make more than half of Americans do.

However, if that plumber saved up every paycheck and didn't pay a single dollar in taxes, his $49K would pay for around 1/10th of the property that I own in St. Maarten (that's an island in the Caribbean).

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Wait, you were just bashing somebody for bragging about their income, right?

I don't won't even go into how much my house in Canada is worth.

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We're all very impressed.

Are you a plumber? I'm sorry to hear you aimed so low in life.

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No, I make more than plumbers do. Still, I did aim higher in life than you did - I aimed for not being a sanctimonious arrogant asshole. Not sure if I made it, but that was my goal.

Hatuey said:

I don't really talk to the help. Do you?

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Yes, I do. In fact I go out of my way to do so, and to ensure that when they do work for me, that the experience is as positive as possible. Over the years it has payed of in spades, including getting my electricity back within 48 hours after the December 2008 Ice Storm here in Massachusetts; and having a plumber inform me of a potentially very expensive repair that was likely going to be coming up that he was able to take care of for much less while he had a bathroom wall open.

misterman said:

It means that plumbers are not "aiming low." They make more than half of Americans do.

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Yes and a farmer in Ghana makes more than a beggar in Nigeria. Your point is what? That making $49K a year(maybe) puts you in the range of high professional aspirations?

Wait, you were just bashing somebody for bragging about their income, right?

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You brought up a plumber's income. I told you mine is much bigger because I aimed higher in life. If that's "bragging" you have a seriously skewed perception of the verb "to brag".

We're all very impressed.

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Don't really care either way.

No, I make more than plumbers do. Still, I did aim higher in life than you did - I aimed for not being a sanctimonious arrogant asshole. Not sure if I made it, but that was my goal.

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Aww did I hurt your plumber feelings? Do you need a tissue for those pipe works I feel coming? Also "sanctimonious" is making a show of being morally superior to others. I'm not morally superior to anyone. Professionally superior than a plumber or whatever other blue collar job it is you have? You betcha.

misterman said:

Bet you'll think more of plumbers when you're kneed-deep in crap someday and you need one to fix your leak.

Oh, and the average income of a plumber is $49K, which is right at the median income of the U.S.

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There's a plumber who hangs out at the dive bar I go to near my apartment who makes more than I do, and I'm a lawyer (that probably won't be true five years from now, but that's another story). Granted he was smart and savvy enough to also invest in residential real estate in San Francisco, but still. The point here is, of course, that being a plumber doesn't necessary mean "aiming low." There are tons of professionals and academics who make less than people who unclog toilets for a living.

Hatuey said:

Yes and a farmer in Ghana makes more than a beggar in Nigeria. Your point is what? That making $49K a year(maybe) puts you in the range of high professional aspirations?

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My point, which I already made, was that "aiming low" is not an accurate description for plumbers. You're smart, you can read.

You brought up a plumber's income. I told you mine is much bigger because I aimed higher in life. If that's "bragging" you have a seriously skewed perception of the verb "to brag".

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No, that's not the part where you bragged.

Don't really care either way.

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You care deeply. That's why you're so desperate to tell us about the homes you own and how you aimed higher and how awesome you are. You need approval badly.

Aww did I hurt your plumber feelings? Do you need a tissue for those pipe works I feel coming?

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I'm not a plumber. You having reading problems again?

Also "sanctimonious" is making a show of being morally superior to others. I'm not morally superior to anyone. Professionally superior than a plumber or whatever other blue collar job it is you have? You betcha.

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Whatever you say.

misterman said:

My point, which I already made, was that "aiming low" is not an accurate description for plumbers. You're smart, you can read.

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You didn't have a point. You came here to bitch about me not caring much for people who do a job a 13 year old from Pakistan could be trained to do. People who strive to be plumbers, roofers etc aim low in life. They're on the same level as taxi drivers and manicurists. I hire them for their services.

No, that's not the part where you bragged.

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Lol, oh so why don't you tell us my little plumber friend, where did I brag?

You care deeply. That's why you're so desperate to tell us about the homes you own and how you aimed higher and how awesome you are. You need approval badly.

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Somebody is living delusions of grandeur. This is probably the first time on this board I've ever even spoken of my income(and notice I really haven't) and that's after nearly 6 years. However if it makes you feel better, the thing I do care about is making sure my kids aim higher in life than being plumbers, roofers or whatever other ****ty profession requires them to work their asses off simply to be in the median.

I'm not a plumber. You having reading problems again?

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Oh but you must be! After all, you seem to have a penchant for defending your blue collar brethren.

Whatever you say.

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Meh.

Hatuey said:

You didn't have a point. You came here to bitch about me not caring much for people who do a job a 13 year old from Pakistan could be trained to do. People who strive to be plumbers, roofers etc aim low in life. They're on the same level as taxi drivers and manicurists. I hire them for their services.

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I said nothing of the sort.

where did I brag?

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:lol:

This is probably the first time on this board I've ever even spoken of my income(and notice I really haven't)

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Right.

Oh but you must be! After all, you seem to have a penchant for defending your blue collar brethren.

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How dare I?

misterman said:

I said nothing of the sort.

:lol:

Right.

How dare I?

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Congratulations. You've gone from being a disgruntled blue collar employee to a boring blue collar employee in less than 3 pages. As a matter of fact you've proven why it is that I want my kids to be more than plumbers. Now what? Are you going to fix my sink and be on your merry way?

Hatuey said:

Congratulations. You've gone from being a disgruntled blue collar employee to a boring blue collar employee in less than 3 pages. As a matter of fact you've proven why it is that I want my kids to be more than plumbers. Now what? Are you going to fix my sink and be on your merry way?

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i had no idea you were such an elitist. btw, i'll be in st maarten next winter........can i visit?

Hatuey said:

Lol is that supposed to mean something to me? Unlike a certain lawyer on these boards, I don't really feel the need to plaster my income for all to see. However, if that plumber saved up every paycheck and didn't pay a single dollar in taxes, his $49K would pay for around 1/10th of the property that I own in St. Maarten (that's an island in the Caribbean). I won't even go into how much my house in Canada is worth.



Are you a plumber? I'm sorry to hear you aimed so low in life.

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sounds like you can afford my hourly fee. do you need a good attorney (in addition to the several you probably have on retainer:mrgreen