View Poll Results: Should “equal opportunity” = free (gov funded) college to those who can complete it?

Voters
60. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    17 28.33%
  • No

    43 71.67%
Page 2 of 14 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 135

Thread: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

  1. #11
    Global Moderator
    Truth will set you free
    digsbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Metro Washington DC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,990

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    It is a violation of PRIVATE colleges to be mandated what they can or cannot charge. It is not a violation of equal opportunity to increase costs for a product that is in high demand. If people are willing to pay for it and the college can remain profitable, what right does anyone have to interrupt this transaction?
    Did I ever mention private colleges? I said affordable. I am not in favor of making college free. However, finances are one of the biggest challenges that new students have to face. Even public universities can cost a fortune once you factor in living expenses and meal plans. I go to a private university, the only reason I can go is because I have a really nice academic scholarship along with a PELL grant and state aid. When federal aid got cut I worked a full time job in the summer in order to pay off my $2000 debt. I live at home and commute to save money while also working a part time job so I can pay my bills.

    College students are adults. An education is an investment. I think all students should have jobs and should work to pay their own debts and their own bills. However, not every family (and certainly not every student) can come up with thousands of dollars to pay for an education. I think everyone from every economic background should have access to affordable university education.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  2. #12
    Bring us a shrubbery!
    tessaesque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Last Seen
    11-09-17 @ 06:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    15,910

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think there should be affordable college. It is a violation of equal opportunity to make colleges so expensive that only kids with rich parents can attend.
    It's $580 a semester (12 hours, without books) for my local community college (Dallas County, one of the largest comm college districts in the country). The school offers several two year certification programs, Associates degrees, and transfer programs to 4-year schools. I have yet to pay more than $180 on books for any one semester by shopping online and doing some research. On top of that, at $30k a year I qualified for a grant which pays for everything I need at the college.

    College CAN be affordable if you use your brain and explore options.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  3. #13
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    When you say "free" you actually mean "tax-payer funded", because it costs something even if the student isn't the one paying the bill. In which case, I would base funding off of academic performance.
    true. The real question is tax payer funded a better way to make sure we get more educated and functioning in soceity than we're doing now.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #14
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Should everyone have access to all types of college education and degrees regardless of their financial status and should the only factor that should be considered when allowing access to college education and degrees be their ability to complete such academic curriculum?

    Or should only those who can afford a college education or those select few who receive scholarships be allowed access to college education and thus, one’s financial status should be considered in addition to one’s ability to complete academic curriculum?

    What option did you pick or which one best reflects your beliefs and why?
    Ideally, yes, but in reality no.

    1. Economically without some sort of downward price pressure, college costs will go up too fast as there is no motivation to take bloat out of the system
    2. Cost to benefit analysis would need to be under taken to see where the profitable amount of subsidies are as compared against the value added to society vs its costs.
    3. I doubt we could afford it.

  5. #15
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Seen
    01-19-12 @ 03:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    358

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ideally, yes, but in reality no.

    1. Economically without some sort of downward price pressure, college costs will go up too fast as there is no motivation to take bloat out of the system
    2. Cost to benefit analysis would need to be under taken to see where the profitable amount of subsidies are as compared against the value added to society vs its costs.
    3. I doubt we could afford it.
    In response to your number (2) - You are suggesting that if we invest $1 dollar of tax payer money and in return society receives $2 worth of product (the graduated student), then we as a society should make this investment, up until the point that that $1 is giving us a return of less than $1. Correct?

    Assuming that we could actually come up with these exact numbers, I have some issues with this thought process: As cost effective as this investment is to society and though I may benefit individually from each dollar invested, each dollar I invest has an opportunity cost. Where else could I have invested or spent that dollar to increase either my own wealth (potentially at a greater rate) or happiness individually? By creating these grants you make the decision on my behalf that the opportunity cost for my dollar is less than the opportunity for another's education. And you take that dollar by force (by threatening jail time if I do not comply and pay my taxes). This is not acceptable. Even if I choose to keep that dollar in a savings bank which will not keep up with inflation, taking the freedom/power to make that irrational decision away from me is unacceptable.

  6. #16
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    In response to your number (2) - You are suggesting that if we invest $1 dollar of tax payer money and in return society receives $2 worth of product (the graduated student), then we as a society should make this investment, up until the point that that $1 is giving us a return of less than $1. Correct?

    Assuming that we could actually come up with these exact numbers, I have some issues with this thought process: As cost effective as this investment is to society and though I may benefit individually from each dollar invested, each dollar I invest has an opportunity cost. Where else could I have invested or spent that dollar to increase either my own wealth (potentially at a greater rate) or happiness individually? By creating these grants you make the decision on my behalf that the opportunity cost for my dollar is less than the opportunity for another's education. And you take that dollar by force (by threatening jail time if I do not comply and pay my taxes). This is not acceptable. Even if I choose to keep that dollar in a savings bank which will not keep up with inflation, taking the freedom/power to make that irrational decision away from me is unacceptable.
    Something like that, even though we should recognize it would be incredibly hard to calculate.

    Opportunity cost is of course part of a good cost benefit analysis.

    I am sorry you find it unacceptable, however, this does not affect my reasoning as all successful societies, throughout history have made these kinds of investments, even if its not necessarily into education. Education is only one type of infrastructure that can benefit society.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-19-12 at 01:23 PM.

  7. #17
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Seen
    01-19-12 @ 03:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    358

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Something like that, even though we should recognize it would be incredibly hard to calculate.

    Opportunity cost is of course part of a good cost benefit analysis.

    I am sorry you find it unacceptable, however, this does not affect my reasoning.
    I don't intend on influencing your reasoning with my acceptance of your idea; only to draw attention to my counter-reasoning

    So let's say opportunity cost is included. Does the fact that the government has found the BEST investment to increase my happiness and/or wealth give them the right to make that decision on my behalf? I do not understand how you can say yes to this question. If I choose to be unreasonable, why would you take that choice away from me? It is a freedom to make that choice. The underlying philosophical problem I have with grants is that they are another tax to redistribute my wealth. To make investment decisions of my property on my behalf and to punish me if I do not comply.

    If this method of redistribution were merely an opportunity and voluntary, then provide me with the data that the investment is worth my dollar and I will make the rational decision, the decision that makes me the happiest. It seems you fear that people, when presented with a fully informed decision, will be irrational and so we must force the rational choice upon them through legislation. I've made some leaps here; feel free to correct my assumptions. I'd really like to know why you think that grants would be appropriate in any situation, so giving you all the benefits of doubts, how do you defend your position?

  8. #18
    Bring us a shrubbery!
    tessaesque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Last Seen
    11-09-17 @ 06:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    15,910

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    I don't intend on influencing your reasoning with my acceptance of your idea; only to draw attention to my counter-reasoning

    So let's say opportunity cost is included. Does the fact that the government has found the BEST investment to increase my happiness and/or wealth give them the right to make that decision on my behalf? I do not understand how you can say yes to this question. If I choose to be unreasonable, why would you take that choice away from me? It is a freedom to make that choice. The underlying philosophical problem I have with grants is that they are another tax to redistribute my wealth. To make investment decisions of my property on my behalf and to punish me if I do not comply.

    If this method of redistribution were merely an opportunity and voluntary, then provide me with the data that the investment is worth my dollar and I will make the rational decision, the decision that makes me the happiest. It seems you fear that people, when presented with a fully informed decision, will be irrational and so we must force the rational choice upon them through legislation. I've made some leaps here; feel free to correct my assumptions. I'd really like to know why you think that grants would be appropriate in any situation, so giving you all the benefits of doubts, how do you defend your position?
    Is your screen name from I Love Lucy??
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  9. #19
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    I don't intend on influencing your reasoning with my acceptance of your idea; only to draw attention to my counter-reasoning

    So let's say opportunity cost is included. Does the fact that the government has found the BEST investment to increase my happiness and/or wealth give them the right to make that decision on my behalf? I do not understand how you can say yes to this question. If I choose to be unreasonable, why would you take that choice away from me? It is a freedom to make that choice. The underlying philosophical problem I have with grants is that they are another tax to redistribute my wealth. To make investment decisions of my property on my behalf and to punish me if I do not comply.

    If this method of redistribution were merely an opportunity and voluntary, then provide me with the data that the investment is worth my dollar and I will make the rational decision, the decision that makes me the happiest. It seems you fear that people, when presented with a fully informed decision, will be irrational and so we must force the rational choice upon them through legislation. I've made some leaps here; feel free to correct my assumptions. I'd really like to know why you think that grants would be appropriate in any situation, so giving you all the benefits of doubts, how do you defend your position?
    easy, I defend my position because I don't think what you bring up is all that important.

    While there is a place for individual rights and needs (and a huge one at that) they should always be balanced with societal needs as the two are always linked.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-19-12 at 01:43 PM.

  10. #20
    Advisor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Seen
    01-19-12 @ 03:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    358

    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    easy, I defend my position because I don't think what you bring up is all that important.

    While there is a place for individual rights and needs (and a huge one at that) they should always be balanced with societal needs as the two are always linked.
    We're moving pretty far into the abstract at this point; what is a 'societal' need? I assume you would consider college to be one of them, with all of the assumptions made about cost-effectiveness.

    But the balance is naturally occurring, assuming that the few individual rights are being fully protected. The job of the government should not be to define societal needs. Government represents and protects individuals, not societies. Those individuals create and define society. That is how they are linked. Not through government.

Page 2 of 14 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •