View Poll Results: Should “equal opportunity” = free (gov funded) college to those who can complete it?

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  • Yes

    17 28.33%
  • No

    43 71.67%
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Thread: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    It's not about incentivizing, it's about making those who already have the incentive the ability to act on it.
    Well the post I originally responded to specifically said it was about incentivizing.

    Oh, and your statement makes no sense. Having government use tax revenues that are already in short supply to underwrite peoples educational expenses doesn't give them an ability they don't already have. Many people take out loans and it turns out to be a very good investment in the case of doctors.

  2. #122
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yeah, so if you want to be a doctor or whatevber, you need to play good sports! That's a really rational education system we have there.
    No. Again, you are making assumptions and are wrong.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    I'd like to address the notion that a college education is for getting into a lucrative profession. I had a professor who asked, "Is the purpose of higher education to graduate making 100 thousand dollars a year?" He explained the goals of a college education. I took notes that day and kept them because they meant so much to me. Here is word for word how he defined the goals of higher education:

    • Ability to think abstractly and perform critical analysis
    • Acquire literacy in writing, reading, speaking, and listening
    • Ability to understand numerical data
    • Having a sense of the past
    • Intellectually at ease with science
    • Acquire the capacity to make informed and moral choices
    • Appreciation of the arts
    • International and multicultural experiences
    • Study in-depth

    Notice there isn't anything in there about getting a fortune 500 company to hire you and pay you a buttload of money. The idea is that a person with the above skill set can learn anything she or he needs to in order to succeed. If you have those skills, you can also learn the a professional skill set. A person can graduate college and go to law school or learn about finances or whatever. When you graduate college, you're not done learning. You've acquired the ability to learn and can learn anything. The idea is not just to get a person who's capable of earning good money. It's to get someone who will make good choices for society as a whole. I've been extremely frustrated by the lack of the above skill set in people I've encountered in political "debate" in this country. I put that in quotes because what often is called debate is nothing more than shout fests chock full of fallacies and misinformation. If we had a country full of people with developed high education skills, we ought to be able to govern ourselves much, much better than we do. The vitriol and polarization that we've seen of late would not be so prevalent.

    Don't get me wrong. I do think having a career direction while still an undergraduate is a good thing. It's entirely possible for a person to be in college and work both on the goals of higher education and on a marketable skill. The point is, a university is not a trade school. If someone wants to study a marketable skill and a marketable skill only, that's by definition a trade school, not a university. There's value in a marketable skill, but there's value in a well-rounded education also. A person who goes to a university only with the goal of getting a great job is missing the point. There's way more to higher education than that and there's way more to life than that.

  4. #124
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Chalk up another victory for the American conservatives (63 % - no free college) as the more advanced nations in this world have...
    I'd like to know exactly how Canada or Germany handle this..
    No question, those with drive and intelligence should have affordable higher education, not necessarily free, but affordable.
    This, we do not have...the student loans and the financial burden on the parents can be a back breaker.

  5. #125
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Oh, and your statement makes no sense. Having government use tax revenues that are already in short supply to underwrite peoples educational expenses doesn't give them an ability they don't already have. Many people take out loans and it turns out to be a very good investment in the case of doctors.
    So nobody has any problem meeting their financial needs for education? Come on.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  6. #126
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No. Again, you are making assumptions and are wrong.
    No I'm not.

    Alot of our scholarships are for sports, not scholarship.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    What we need is some real psychologists who can diagnose all of society's ills, then get those who need it to seek psychiatric care.
    What we need here is a bona-fide miracle man....the first part is easy, the second part is nearly impossible.

  8. #128
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    People should be paid to go to college, how much pay and how much college should be dependent on the amount of service given to the nation in return.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  9. #129
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    For anyone interested:

    During the 2006-07 academic year, more than $130 billion in financial aid was distributed to undergraduate and graduate students in the form of grants from all sources and federal loans, work-study, and tax credits and deductions. In addition, these students borrowed more than $18 billion from state and private sources to help finance their education.
    • Total student aid increased by about 82 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07. Aid to undergraduate and graduate students increased at similar rates.
    • Loans have declined from 76 percent to 69 percent of total federal aid over the decade, as education tax credits and deductions have come to constitute 7 percent of federal aid to students.
    • The increase in grant dollars between 1996-97 and 2006-07 covered an average of about a third of the increase in private college tuition and fees and half of the increase in average public four-year college tuition and fees. The increase in total aid, including both grant aid from all sources and federal loans, covered about two-thirds of the increase in tuition and fees at private four-year colleges and almost all of the increase in tuition and fees (but none of the additional increase in costs of attendance) at public four-year institutions.
    Grant Aid
    Grant aid from all sources averaged $4,648 per full-time equivalent (FTE) student—$4,218 per undergraduate (90 percent of all FTE students) and $8,343 per graduate student (10 percent of all FTE students).
    • Total grant dollars to undergraduates increased by 7 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars between 2005-06 and 2006-07, and grant dollars to graduate students increased slightly more. Grant aid per student increased by 4 percent over the same period.
    • The number of Pell Grant recipients increased by 41 percent, from 3.7 million to 5.2 million, over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07, after growing 38 percent the preceding decade.
    • In 2005, 36 percent of all Pell Grant recipients were age 26 or older and 59 percent were independent of their parents. Among dependent Pell Grant recipients, two-thirds came from families with incomes below $30,000.
    • Total Pell Grant expenditures, which rose by 73 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07, declined in real terms for the second year in a row in 2006-07, by $141 million in 2006 dollars. The highest annual expenditures were in 2004-05, when total Pell Grants equaled $14 billion in 2006 dollars.
    • The average Pell Grant per recipient, $2,494 in 2006-07, was 23 percent higher in inflation-adjusted dollars than it had been a decade earlier, but 5.3 percent lower than it was in 2001-02.
    • The percentage of tuition and fees and room and board at the average public four-year college covered by the maximum Pell Grant declined from 35 percent in 1996-97 and 42 percent in 2001-02 to 32 percent in 2006-07. The amount covered in 1986-87
    During the 2006-07 academic year, more than $130 billion in financial aid was distributed to undergraduate and graduate students in the form of grants from all sources and federal loans, work-study, and tax credits and deductions. In addition, these students borrowed more than $18 billion from state and private sources to help finance their education.
    • Total student aid increased by about 82 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07. Aid to undergraduate and graduate students increased at similar rates.
    • Loans have declined from 76 percent to 69 percent of total federal aid over the decade, as education tax credits and deductions have come to constitute 7 percent of federal aid to students.
    • The increase in grant dollars between 1996-97 and 2006-07 covered an average of about a third of the increase in private college tuition and fees and half of the increase in average public four-year college tuition and fees. The increase in total aid, including both grant aid from all sources and federal loans, covered about two-thirds of the increase in tuition and fees at private four-year colleges and almost all of the increase in tuition and fees (but none of the additional increase in costs of attendance) at public four-year institutions.
    Grant Aid
    Grant aid from all sources averaged $4,648 per full-time equivalent (FTE) student—$4,218 per undergraduate (90 percent of all FTE students) and $8,343 per graduate student (10 percent of all FTE students).
    • Total grant dollars to undergraduates increased by 7 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars between 2005-06 and 2006-07, and grant dollars to graduate students increased slightly more. Grant aid per student increased by 4 percent over the same period.
    • The number of Pell Grant recipients increased by 41 percent, from 3.7 million to 5.2 million, over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07, after growing 38 percent the preceding decade.
    • In 2005, 36 percent of all Pell Grant recipients were age 26 or older and 59 percent were independent of their parents. Among dependent Pell Grant recipients, two-thirds came from families with incomes below $30,000.
    • Total Pell Grant expenditures, which rose by 73 percent in inflation-adjusted dollars over the decade from 1996-97 to 2006-07, declined in real terms for the second year in a row in 2006-07, by $141 million in 2006 dollars. The highest annual expenditures were in 2004-05, when total Pell Grants equaled $14 billion in 2006 dollars.
    • The average Pell Grant per recipient, $2,494 in 2006-07, was 23 percent higher in inflation-adjusted dollars than it had been a decade earlier, but 5.3 percent lower than it was in 2001-02.
    • The percentage of tuition and fees and room and board at the average public four-year college covered by the maximum Pell Grant declined from 35 percent in 1996-97 and 42 percent in 2001-02 to 32 percent in 2006-07. The amount covered in 1986-87
    source: collegeboard.org (pdf)
    Last edited by lizzie; 01-22-12 at 12:11 AM.
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    -C G Jung

  10. #130
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    Re: Should “equal opportunity” mean free college?

    I don't think there's any doubt by people even remotely in the know that there's money to be had for college if you really want it.

    The people who say "college is too expensive" or "I can't afford it" are the people who don't look seriously into it, or people who equate sheepskins to elitism or snobbery. It gives them something to discuss with the deli or electronics department at Wal-mart.

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