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Thread: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

  1. #11
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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I'm completely against sexual slavery too. However, what you describe is really the result of illegal prostitution. It doesn't describe the legal brothels in Nevada. When it's legal and regulated, we avoid almost all the problems that happen with illegal prostitution. In the legal brothels, you don't have sex workers beholden to a pimp and forced to work.
    Hmm that may be true. But I'm not so sure. Even in strip clubs, a large percentage of the women are actually there working off some kind of debt that they have been told they owe to an organization that brought them over. Often times those arrangements are backed up by threats to their families back home. I would bet the same is true of legal brothels. And drugs still likely play a role. I don't know. That's a good argument, but in my opinion, it would require some serious empirical research to see whether legal brothels really solve those issues or not.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Hmm that may be true. But I'm not so sure. Even in strip clubs, a large percentage of the women are actually there working off some kind of debt that they have been told they owe to an organization that brought them over. Often times those arrangements are backed up by threats to their families back home. I would bet the same is true of legal brothels. And drugs still likely play a role. I don't know. That's a good argument, but in my opinion, it would require some serious empirical research to see whether legal brothels really solve those issues or not.
    I'd be fine with some empirical research being done. The comparison with strip clubs is an interesting one. I've know strippers who get stuck in the life, taking stacks of 1 dollar bills into 7-11 at the end of their shifts and wasting them on lottery tickets. I've also known strippers who pay their way through college or build up the funds to start a business. That's why even if it's possible for some ugly things to happen in the stripping industry, I'm for it remaining legal. And that's why I'm for prostitution being legal. It can be done in a safe way that benefits all involved, and that's much more likely to happen if the government is able to regulate it.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    What don't you think the government should be involved in?
    Hmm. Nothing? Some laws that the government could pass would be absolutely immoral, but I don't believe the government's authority to pass moral laws should be limited.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    …but just list the issues that you would rather seen handled by state governments than the Federal government.
    Nearly everything that the Constitution does not explicitly name as falling under the jurisdiction of the federal government. I believe that the Tenth Amendment ought to be very strictly obeyed.

    If I thought hard enough, I'm sure I could come up with a few ares in which the federal government has claimed power, that it isn't explicitly delegated in the Constitution, and which I would agree that it ought to have. In those very few cases, the Constitution ought to be Amended in order to delegate those powers to the federal government.
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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    I'd rather list the areas where the federal government should have a role (in random order).

    1. Education
    2. Public health, safety, defense (including healthcare, anti-terrorism and environmental law)
    3. Foreign affairs (military and diplomacy)
    4. Civil Rights
    5. Interstate economics

    The state can legislate on top of all these areas. Everything else can be handled solely by the states.
    I agree with these except in education. I think the Fed ought to butt out of education for the most part.

    In fact, other than 2-5, I'd like to see the Fed butt out of everything else I can think of. If the federal government can do it, why can't a state do it?

    I think it's important to note, though, that in the "Civil Rights" category, at a Federal level most laws ought to be restrictive in nature instead of permissive. Meaning, the Federal Government should be able to set a minimum standard for how people are treated, but not necessarily mandate what States would have to allow.
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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    • the sale of sexual services (often derisively known as prostitution)
    Just to let you know, the federal government hasn't criminalized prostitution. Prostitution laws are regulated by the states. This is why Nevada has legal prostitution in some areas. I believe that Nevada further decentralized prostitution laws to the county level.

    Also, prostitution in Rhode Island was legal until 2009, when the state legislature criminalized it. Previously, RI had criminalized many things relating to prostitution - brothels, solicitation, and the like - but not prostitution itself.

    So the federal has, indeed, butted out of the sale of sexual services, but the state and local governments have not.

    However, there is no federal protection to the freedom of sexual services, which is why state and local governments can regulate or criminalize it.

    Likewise, there is no constitutional protection to the freedom of sexual services, so the federal government could, if they wanted to, criminalize prostitution nationwide as per the Commerce Clause if they chose to. They just haven't yet.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Just to let you know, the federal government hasn't criminalized prostitution. Prostitution laws are regulated by the states. This is why Nevada has legal prostitution in some areas. I believe that Nevada further decentralized prostitution laws to the county level.

    Also, prostitution in Rhode Island was legal until 2009, when the state legislature criminalized it. Previously, RI had criminalized many things relating to prostitution - brothels, solicitation, and the like - but not prostitution itself.

    So the federal has, indeed, butted out of the sale of sexual services, but the state and local governments have not.

    However, there is no federal protection to the freedom of sexual services, which is why state and local governments can regulate or criminalize it.

    Likewise, there is no constitutional protection to the freedom of sexual services, so the federal government could, if they wanted to, criminalize prostitution nationwide as per the Commerce Clause if they chose to. They just haven't yet.
    I'm glad they haven't criminalized prostitution. What they have done is to criminalize sexual tourism, which is going to another country for the purpose of participating in prostitution. IMO they've overreached their authority. What happens in another country falls under the jurisdiction of that country, not of the Federal government.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That is one I think I've changed my mind on recently. I agree, in theory, with the idea that if somebody wants to sell sex that isn't the government's business. But we had a speaker at my law school last year that had worked for a women's shelter for 35 years, largely doing outreach to prostitutes that gave a pretty compelling counter argument. Her take is that prostitution is largely slavery. Not in some hippie dippie sense of treating women's bodies like property, but literal slavery. The vast majority of prostitutes started before they reached 15. The ran away from home and a predatory pimp found them, maybe they were even kidnapped or shipped here from another country where their family was threatened if they didn't comply. The pimp systematically gained control over them through violence, drugs, threats and manipulation to the point where they at least believe that they really have no choice.

    So, the obvious response is that statutory rape and slavery are illegal, so we could just prosecute them for that without having to make prostitution illegal. But practically speaking that doesn't really work. A woman who is, for example, severely addicted to heroin and whose only source is her pimp, whose pimp has her kids while she's out, and whose pimp regularly beats her and her kids just is not realistically going to go to the police to report it and even if somebody else reports it, she isn't going to testify in court against him. Or, with statutory rape, it is much harder to prove. Police can't solicit statutory rape because the john is the perpetrator. Neither the john nor the victim are ever going to report it. Even if somebody does report it, that just allows the police to go after the john, it doesn't empower them to do anything to help the girl out of her situation. So, from a practical point of view, the only real way to fight it is to make the whole profession illegal.

    I'm not 100% convinced, but that definitely gave me a lot to think about on the topic.
    The main thing is to do what is effective, what makes for a better society. The old fashioned laws be damned !
    We have had several hundred years to study this...as have the Asian and European nations.
    What say they ??
    Myself, I do not think many of the states are up to this human responsibility..
    and I do not think the women should be bothered and persecuted, but the pimps should all rot in jail...

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Religion.
    Guns.
    How I raise my child.
    What I do on my own private property, as long as it harm none.

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    Re: what are your "Federal government butt out" issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I won't post it as a voting poll, but just list the issues that you would rather seen handled by state governments than the Federal government. Here are mine:

    • marijuana (for medicinal or recreational use)
    • the sale of sexual services (often derisively known as prostitution)
    • marriage, especially gay marriage
    Marijuana should be legal, controlled and taxed, the same with alcohol.
    This should be a state level only.
    Prostitution , similar
    Marriage...all governments must stay out of this...so-called "gay" marriage should be ignored.

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