View Poll Results: How should Marijuana be dealt with?

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  • Stricter federal laws must be made, and more money put to enforcing them

    13 10.83%
  • Give individual states the right to decide how to go about it

    39 32.50%
  • Legalize it through a federal law

    52 43.33%
  • Give states the right to decide about it as long as they abide by certain Federal guidelines

    16 13.33%
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Thread: Marijuana

  1. #381
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Being gay or being addictive in nature is not a choice.
    That's right -- they're both unconscious compulsions.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The actions one enacts in response to these are in fact, choices.
    But at a more mechanical level of making mundane decisions after the fact of being gay and an addict, respectively.

    The overriding unconscious compulsion is what is meaningfully relevant here with regard to being gay or an addict, respectively.

    The decision with whom to have gay sex or what drugs to use, respectively, isn't meaningful.

    What's meaningful is that one's powerfully overwhelming unconscious compulsion to have gay sex and do drugs, respectively, are not consciously made "choices".


    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    An addict chooses to do drugs,
    Absolutely false.

    An addict is unconsciously compelled to do drugs.

    It is not a choice.

    Likewise, a gay person doesn't "choose" to have homosexual sex.

    A gay person is unconsciously compelled to have homosexual sex.


    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    and he chooses to stop doing drugs when that becomes more important than the drugs themselves.
    Pre-teens and teens don't have the sufficiently developed mental facilities to override their unconsciously compelled addictive behavior.

    Most adults don't either.

    Interventions and treatment programs, societal taboos against drug addiction -- including keeping pot illegal -- play a major role in providing addicts with the external support they require to stop acting out their deadly addictions.

    Your tendency to over-simplify into meaningless the terrible affliction of the disease of drug addiction comes at the sacrifice of the truth of the matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    As for being gay- I couldn't care less whether or not someone is gay, and whether or not it is a choice is irrelevant. Drug addiction and sexual preference are two different things altogether.
    Of course you could "care less" -- the accurate application of the transferrable concept of unconscious compulsion in gays to behave homosexually speaks to the very same nature of drug addicts behaving addictively.

    Though these are applicably similar, you wouldn't state that a gay person has a "choice" not to behave homosexually, as you realize how absurd that is to say.

    But you'll say an addict has a choice not to behave addictively, even though the same type of unconscious compulsion is at work there.

    The only difference here is that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but there is something terribly damaging and wrong about addiction.

    Your convenient selectivity on the matter makes it obvious that your application of "choice" to the matter is simply an inapplicable contrivance you apply to suit your utilitarian purpose.
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  2. #382
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post

    Your tendency to over-simplify into meaningless the terrible affliction of the disease of drug addiction comes at the sacrifice of the truth of the matter.



    Of course you could "care less" -- the accurate application of the transferrable concept of unconscious compulsion in gays to behave homosexually speaks to the very same nature of drug addicts behaving addictively.

    Though these are applicably similar, you wouldn't state that a gay person has a "choice" not to behave homosexually, as you realize how absurd that is to say.

    But you'll say an addict has a choice not to behave addictively, even though the same type of unconscious compulsion is at work there.

    The only difference here is that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but there is something terribly damaging and wrong about addiction.

    Your convenient selectivity on the matter makes it obvious that your application of "choice" to the matter is simply an inapplicable contrivance you apply to suit your utilitarian purpose.
    It’s not meaningless, but it is a compulsion over which one has ultimate control. I’ve known and I currently know plenty of addicts- of various types. Drugs, alcohol, seedy behavior, whatever type of compulsion you would want to speak of. Compulsions are controllable behaviors. You can either not give in to the addictive compulsion by avoidance, or you can become a full-blown addict, at which point you must make a choice. The choice is on whether or not you will let your addictions control your life. Been there, done that. I understand addictions because I have the trait, not because I am judging those who are addicts. No matter what you believe, and no matter how you want to rationalize and excuse addictive behaviors, behaviors are controllable, and if they are not, then that denotes a certain lack of character on the part of the addict.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  3. #383
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    Re: Marijuna

    Very true. Addiction can certainly be influenced by predisposition and the effects of use can become a prison, but it would be totally wrong to suggest that there is not still a good deal of character and choice involved in the nature of addiction. We should not treat it as the sort of thing that is easy to stop at whim, but we must not ignore this choice. Addiction is not the same as other mental illnesses, if it right to call it such.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-16-12 at 06:53 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #384
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Itís not meaningless, but it is a compulsion over which one has ultimate control. Iíve known and I currently know plenty of addicts- of various types. Drugs, alcohol, seedy behavior, whatever type of compulsion you would want to speak of. Compulsions are controllable behaviors. You can either not give in to the addictive compulsion by avoidance, or you can become a full-blown addict, at which point you must make a choice. The choice is on whether or not you will let your addictions control your life. Been there, done that. I understand addictions because I have the trait, not because I am judging those who are addicts. No matter what you believe, and no matter how you want to rationalize and excuse addictive behaviors, behaviors are controllable, and if they are not, then that denotes a certain lack of character on the part of the addict.
    Well said.
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  5. #385
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You have to remember that the law is supposed to be the enforcement arm of society. It's illegal because society has deemed it impermissible.
    Support from the majority is not a moral justification by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You strongly implied it.
    If I did, that was not my intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Government is an important part of human interactions, it is intertwined with many areas of society and culture and therefore has a social role. Government can certainly encourage and support morality. Not in the sense that it completely enforces, but it can certainly has some cautious, but not insignificant role in this area.

    That does not mean that it is necessary to support morality or that private actors can do the same job more efficiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    They are not completely voluntary, far from it. Many of the bonds are partially not chosen, such as family. Government has a role in society, it must be careful not to undermine these bonds, that is why I'm in favour of decentralised and relatively small government. But the idea it can have no moral role is simply an a priori and unsupported assumption and makes no sense. Government as an important aspect of social order and social and cultural consciousness, to be morally and culturally neutral would be to act against social and culture values and beliefs and there is no reason why encouragement of these values and beliefs should not sometimes be supported by law.
    Once we turn 18 our family has no control over us. A priest cannot sacrifice one of us to his God if we disagree with him. These institutions cannot send people with guns to your house and send you to prison for not listening to them.
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  6. #386
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    That does not mean that it is necessary to support morality or that private actors can do the same job more efficiently.
    Yes it does, it means the government must not completely ignore this morality, indeed it must be animated by it and that it can sometimes have a cautious and limited hand in more specific initiatives to support social morality. Why would we a priori rule out the government having some small role anyway? The government can use force, why would it never be okay to protect people from vice through force?
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-17-12 at 02:13 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #387
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes it does, it means the government must not completely ignore this morality, indeed it must be animated by it and that it can sometimes have a cautious and limited hand in more specific initiatives to support social morality. Why would we a priori rule out the government having some small role anyway? The government can use force, why would it never be okay to protect people from vice through force?
    If someone decides to do drugs, provide sexual services for drugs, or engage in some other vice, the act itself does nothing coerce others. It violates no one else's rights. Other people might not like or may even be affected by the decision, but it is not their body. It is not their choice to make for that person. Even if we ignored the liberty argument, banning vices would still not be a good idea. Banning vices does not really work. People would still do it, except they would then do it in a dangerous, criminal economy that is far more likely to create negative externalities than an open market. Amsterdam and Nevada have decriminalized or legalized prostitution with good results. All you have brought up are subjective abstractions.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  8. #388
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    If someone decides to do drugs, provide sexual services for drugs, or engage in some other vice, the act itself does nothing coerce others. It violates no one else's rights. Other people might not like or may even be affected by the decision, but it is not their body. It is not their choice to make for that person.
    Some things have social and cultural effects beyond their immediate users and those immediately effected by them. Again you are basic to implying a very atomist position.

    Even if we ignored the liberty argument, banning vices would still not be a good idea. Banning vices does not really work. People would still do it, except they would then do it in a dangerous, criminal economy that is far more likely to create negative externalities than an open market. Amsterdam and Nevada have decriminalized or legalized prostitution with good results. All you have brought up are subjective abstractions.
    All I have brought up is reason, we need reason and right thought before proceeding any further. It is simply not true that the government can never have a positive effect, either on making some vices less legitimate and even preventing those who may indulge in them anyway from doing so.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #389
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Some things have social and cultural effects beyond their immediate users and those immediately effected by them. Again you are basic to implying a very atomist position.
    No it isn't. I never said that people's actions don't have an effect on others. I only said that things like prostitution are not coercive. There is a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    All I have brought up is reason, we need reason and right thought before proceeding any further. It is simply not true that the government can never have a positive effect, either on making some vices less legitimate and even preventing those who may indulge in them anyway from doing so.
    You have not shown why or how this principle applies here.
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  10. #390
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    No it isn't. I never said that people's actions don't have an effect on others. I only said that things like prostitution are not coercive. There is a difference.
    But you keep saying that as if that means it is never illegitimate to regulate or prohibit such actions.


    You have not shown why or how this principle applies here.
    Actually I have repeatedly, earlier in the thread.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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