View Poll Results: How should Marijuana be dealt with?

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  • Stricter federal laws must be made, and more money put to enforcing them

    13 10.83%
  • Give individual states the right to decide how to go about it

    39 32.50%
  • Legalize it through a federal law

    52 43.33%
  • Give states the right to decide about it as long as they abide by certain Federal guidelines

    16 13.33%
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Thread: Marijuana

  1. #341
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I'm not saying that society has no influence over people or shaping them.
    You strongly implied it.

    That's why we don't need government enforcing personal morality. Society generally does a far better job.
    Government is an important part of human interactions, it is intertwined with many areas of society and culture and therefore has a social role. Government can certainly encourage and support morality. Not in the sense that it completely enforces, but it can certainly has some cautious, but not insignificant role in this area.

    I never went against these social bonds. This is because they are largely voluntary. They may influence people and attract them toward certain paths, but they differ from government force, in that they are not coercive. That's my point; these bonds make government force largely unnecessary. Right-Libertarianism is not against all authority and hierarchy, but coercion. It is a subtle distinction, but an important one.
    They are not completely voluntary, far from it. Many of the bonds are partially not chosen, such as family. Government has a role in society, it must be careful not to undermine these bonds, that is why I'm in favour of decentralised and relatively small government. But the idea it can have no moral role is simply an a priori and unsupported assumption and makes no sense. Government as an important aspect of social order and social and cultural consciousness, to be morally and culturally neutral would be to act against social and culture values and beliefs and there is no reason why encouragement of these values and beliefs should not sometimes be supported by law.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #342
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by MaddieGreenwell View Post
    If you're saying it is fine to use marijuana for spiritual uplifting, why is it SO completely wrong to use it in a recreational sense? What you're describing isn't what most people that smoke pot do it for anyways. You are more describing the use of alcohol, as a social lubricant. Marijuana is often used to relax, collect thoughts, and of course of spiritual experiences. Not to start a party and feel like a bad a**.
    I see little reason to keep marijuana illegal. Marijuana, like alcohol, is used both legitimately as an aid to positive human activities, where it doesn't usurp the experience, and in a silly way, like binge drinking, where the purpose is to mostly get intoxicated and perhaps engage in some dubious activities. But I wouldn't ban either simply because of this.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #343
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You have to remember that the law is supposed to be the enforcement arm of society. It's illegal because society has deemed it impermissible.
    Very true. The relationship is complex. The role of law isn't simply to ban what is looked down upon, and should be, socially and culturally. But that there can never be a role for government to enforce social morality seems arbitrary and indeed wrong.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #344
    Educator david52875's Avatar
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    Re: Marijuna

    Legalize it on the State, rather than Federal, level and don't tax or regulate it.

  5. #345
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Very true. The relationship is complex. The role of law isn't simply to ban what is looked down upon, and should be, socially and culturally. But that there can never be a role for government to enforce social morality seems arbitrary and indeed wrong.
    It certainly be, but you're right, it is complex. The law tends to reflect current attitudes of society. When society collectively changes it's mind, people vote for laws, referendums and politicians that reflect their new attitudes and those laws change. I get really tired of people who act like the law, the government and the system are their enemies. No they're not, they're your fault! You voted to have them implemented that way!
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  6. #346
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No good options really. We don't have a war on drugs now, we have a media campaign on drugs. We need to get serious and put all dealers to death on the first offense. That will seriously put a damper on the drug trade.
    I am astonished. Yet another person who believes in using Draconian punishments against non violent citizens. And what punishments would you have in store for jaywalkers.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  7. #347
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I am astonished. Yet another person who believes in using Draconian punishments against non violent citizens. And what punishments would you have in store for jaywalkers.
    "Non-violent citizens".

    Such visualizations can be deceptive.

    Arms dealers, themselves, are non-violent, and, they can be citizens. And, like drug dealers, they're just engaging in commerce with other citizens, other citizens who, if they're the end users, inflict criminal damage on others and often with deadly repercussive results to themselves.

    But the arms dealer? Was he violent? Not really.

    Does it matter that his beahvior was non-violent in setting off the understandable damaging reactions? Again, not so much.

    His non-violentness is irrelevant.

    Does it also matter that he was a citizen? Again, no, not at all.

    His behavior is what it is, and the fact that he's a citizen is meaningless.

    I'm always a bit amused at the irrelevancies people state in defense of behavior that's void of any redeeming value, behavior that directly leads to severe damage to others.

    If you want to say that pot doesn't do brain damage, doesn't trigger pychologically or physiologically addictive reaction in the many millions so predisposed who are often children, doesn't cause deadly traffic accidents, etc., etc., well, that's fine. Those are straight and relevant statements that can be straight and relevantly debated, on-topic.

    But that some drug dealers themselves might be behaving non-violently and they might be citizens -- that's all pretty much irrelevant divertive subterfuge, argumentationally speaking, a form of sophistry, I would imagine.

    Non-violent citizens are rightly indicted, convicted and sentenced to incarceration for behavior involved in inflicting severe damage on others. And depending on the nature of their crime, they are sometimes even sentenced to death.

    The fact that they were non-violent and citizens, does in no way excuse their crime.

    And that's a good thing .. from society's perspective.

    These criminals may not be end- murderers, kidnappers, child-abusers and the like.

    But they still prey on people, illegally, against society's wishes.

    We thus lock those so convicted behind bars.

    We do that to punish them ..

    .. And we do that to get them off our streets, so as to protect ourselves from their damaging behavior.
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  8. #348
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    These criminals may not be end- murderers, kidnappers, child-abusers and the like.

    But they still prey on people, illegally, against society's wishes.

    We thus lock those so convicted behind bars.

    We do that to punish them ..

    .. And we do that to get them off our streets, so as to protect ourselves from their damaging behavior.
    You clearly must not know much about marijuana. Legalizing marijuana wouldn't cause people to engage in "damaging behavior" or want to start doing other illegal things. I have friends in ivy league colleges that smoke pot, and you think because they smoke marijuana that they the kind of people you think that are damaging today's society and making it unsafe? *rolls eyes*

  9. #349
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by MaddieGreenwell View Post
    You clearly must not know much about marijuana.
    I don't believe that's an accurate statement or that it could be logically inferred from my previous post. It sounds like you'd like it to be, but empty wishes are fairly meaningless.

    Here's something to read on the matter: Street Pot Is Irrefutably Deadly. I've read this OP, among many other presentations about pot, and I've read its links. They're all true. It's about the facts. And, it's about the inescapable logical conclusion about the untrustworthiness of the presentation of those who just want their drug.

    So, clearly, your assumption is obviouslly false.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaddieGreenwell View Post
    Legalizing marijuana wouldn't cause people to engage in "damaging behavior" or want to start doing other illegal things.
    Well, your statement doesn't mean anything with regard to speaking to what I presented in my previous post.

    Whether or not we legalize pot has no effect on causing "people to engage in 'damaging behavior' or want to start doing other illegal things", other than, most likely, increasing such incidence.

    Your statement appears to be a confusion.



    Quote Originally Posted by MaddieGreenwell View Post
    I have friends in ivy league colleges that smoke pot, and you think because they smoke marijuana that they the kind of people you think that are damaging today's society and making it unsafe? *rolls eyes*
    Again, all I can say to your statement here is "Huh???"

    I simply replied to the statement that just because some drug dealers may be both non-violent and citizens is simply irrelevant with regard to the nature of their behavior that society (meaning the great majority of responsible Americans who care about their children and themselves and America as a whole and all) considers very damaging.

    Just because the dealers are non-violent and citizens is .. irrelevant.

    But, as to your statement about your ivy league friends .. do they push their pot on children? .. are they addicted? .. is the pot causing brain damage to them? .. do they ever drive while stoned? .. etc.?

    Due to the social nature of human beings, that such is a considerably large plurality of which your ivy league friends may, possibly, be considered members by some .. well, by understandable definition, if they do harm to themselves wih pot, they're probably thereby damaging society, to some degree, though perhaps small.

    When you add up all the psychological/physiological drug addicts acting out, well, then you have a lot of people killed and maimed in auto accients caused by pot DUI .. etc.

    But that wasn't really the point of my previous post.

    As to any pro-pot arguments people might want to make in reaction to my posts, I'm not really in that much of a mood to debate the matter, as it's all been said before.

    Instead, I would love to hear some reaction to that link I prsented earlier here. I mean, with regard to arguments in favor of the status quo, I've simply never read anything more comprehensively winning on the matter.
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  10. #350
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    "Non-violent citizens".

    Such visualizations can be deceptive.

    Arms dealers, themselves, are non-violent, and, they can be citizens. And, like drug dealers, they're just engaging in commerce with other citizens, other citizens who, if they're the end users, inflict criminal damage on others and often with deadly repercussive results to themselves.

    But the arms dealer? Was he violent? Not really.

    Does it matter that his beahvior was non-violent in setting off the understandable damaging reactions? Again, not so much.

    His non-violentness is irrelevant.

    Does it also matter that he was a citizen? Again, no, not at all.

    His behavior is what it is, and the fact that he's a citizen is meaningless.

    I'm always a bit amused at the irrelevancies people state in defense of behavior that's void of any redeeming value, behavior that directly leads to severe damage to others.

    If you want to say that pot doesn't do brain damage, doesn't trigger pychologically or physiologically addictive reaction in the many millions so predisposed who are often children, doesn't cause deadly traffic accidents, etc., etc., well, that's fine. Those are straight and relevant statements that can be straight and relevantly debated, on-topic.

    But that some drug dealers themselves might be behaving non-violently and they might be citizens -- that's all pretty much irrelevant divertive subterfuge, argumentationally speaking, a form of sophistry, I would imagine.

    Non-violent citizens are rightly indicted, convicted and sentenced to incarceration for behavior involved in inflicting severe damage on others. And depending on the nature of their crime, they are sometimes even sentenced to death.

    The fact that they were non-violent and citizens, does in no way excuse their crime.

    And that's a good thing .. from society's perspective.

    These criminals may not be end- murderers, kidnappers, child-abusers and the like.

    But they still prey on people, illegally, against society's wishes.

    We thus lock those so convicted behind bars.

    We do that to punish them ..

    .. And we do that to get them off our streets, so as to protect ourselves from their damaging behavior.
    Yes. Non violent.

    The vast majority of violence associated with drugs exists because drugs are illegal. It's supply and demand just like everything else. If the legal market cannot provide, then the black market steps in. This unregulated market controlled by gangs is the source of almost all drug related violence. Legalize it.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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