View Poll Results: How should Marijuana be dealt with?

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  • Stricter federal laws must be made, and more money put to enforcing them

    13 10.83%
  • Give individual states the right to decide how to go about it

    39 32.50%
  • Legalize it through a federal law

    52 43.33%
  • Give states the right to decide about it as long as they abide by certain Federal guidelines

    16 13.33%
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Thread: Marijuana

  1. #331
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    Re: Marijuna

    I'm not sure you should discount the spiritual potentials of alcohol, as Plato is supposed to have said “He was a wise man who invented beer.”. In both Christianity and Sufi Islam wine has a long and important spiritual symbolism.

    Cupbearer, it is morning, fill my cup with wine.
    Make haste, the heavenly sphere knows no delay.
    Before this transient world is ruined and destroyed,
    ruin me with a beaker of rose-tinted wine.
    The sun of the wine dawns in the east of the goblet.
    Pursue life's pleasure, abandon dreams,
    and the day when the wheel makes pitchers of my clay,
    take care to fill my skull with wine!
    We are not men for piety, penance and preaching
    but rather give us a sermon in praise of a cup of clear wine.
    Wine-worship is a noble task, O Hafiz;
    rise and advance firmly to your noble task.

    -Hafiz

    While I agree that cannabis and certain other substances may be spiritually uplifting, and cannabis can also certainly be similar to alcohol in its social and cultural usages as well, I don't think most idiot Westerners who use these substances do so with any spiritual benefit though, beyond sometimes indirectly through the social and cultural effects. Spiritual development takes effort, it takes preparation and it takes purification. This is why shaman who use entheogens do so in a meaningful ritual. College kids who ingest magic mushrooms do not. It at least takes some grounding in a spiritual tradition and enough of a spiritually qualified mindset.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-12-12 at 08:13 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #332
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    Re: Marijuna

    Make marijuana a state issue only. Repeal all Federal laws on the matter and then leave it up to each state to decide how they want to handle marijuana. They can criminalize it or legalize it for medicinal purposes or legalize it for all purposes. The bottom line is the Federal government should butt OUT and let each state choose.

  3. #333
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    While I agree that cannabis and certain other substances may be spiritually uplifting, and cannabis can also certainly be similar to alcohol in its social and cultural usages as well, I don't think most idiot Westerners who use these substances do so with any spiritual benefit though, beyond sometimes indirectly through the social and cultural effects. Spiritual development takes effort, it takes preparation and it takes purification. This is why shaman who use entheogens do so in a meaningful ritual. College kids who ingest magic mushrooms do not. It at least takes some grounding in a spiritual tradition and enough of a spiritually qualified mindset.
    That's merely a product of illegalization. Do you think that businesses, individuals, or institutions can openly talk about the spiritual values of pot use without suffering the watchful eye of government?

    People's ignorance about how to use entheogens is partially a product of anti-drug culturalization.

    I disagree that you need a spiritual tradition to have spiritual experiences on entheogens. I happened to have one in India, but I had spiritual experiences with entheogens before that. And I'm not some hippy. I grew up in a pretty conservative part of the U.S.

    I firmly believe that these plants have evolved alongside humans, and that the desire to be altered is built in to our life experience. That doesn't mean everyone does it, but the knowledged gained from doing it is undeniable.

    We need to stop bogging this debate down by having "drug" debates and talking about side effects. Those are irrelevant to freedom fo choice. I would rather talk about the psychospiritual implications, and how that could benefit humanity. We live in a culture that is swimming in anti-depressants. Entheogens are a demonstrable answer to that.

  4. #334
    Angry Former GOP Voter
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    Re: Marijuna

    I'm not sympathetic to the intellectual/spiritual "uplifting" argument about drugs (including alcohol). I am further reminded of Jefferson who was a bit of a wine drinker (well, snob, really) who considered wine to be the uplifting substance in conversation, stimulating the mind (as opposed to those darn beer drinkers). I can also say, many of my favorite conversations with friends about historiography came not from pot, but from liquor at Irish pubs, and I give no credit to the liquor, but only the people at that table.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 01-12-12 at 08:30 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #335
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I'm not sympathetic to the intellectual/spiritual "uplifting" argument about drugs (including alcohol). I am further reminded of Jefferson who was a bit of a wine drinker (well, snob, really) who considered wine to be the uplifting substance in conversation, stimulating the mind (as opposed to those darn beer drinkers). I can also say, many of my favorite conversations with friends about historiography came not from pot, but from liquor at Irish pubs, and I give no credit to the liquor, but only the people at that table.
    That's fine... but it's not your business to restrict my freedoms based on your own interpretations of substance use. It has those values for others and they are not feigned, but genuine, as I have described with my own experience. Your views do not justify throwing a person in jail for the long term, subjecting them to torment in the penetentary system, or dividing families or communities over it.

    Legalization benefits everyone. Except government control, industry, and the black market gangs of course.

  6. #336
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    While I agree that cannabis and certain other substances may be spiritually uplifting, and cannabis can also certainly be similar to alcohol in its social and cultural usages as well, I don't think most idiot Westerners who use these substances do so with any spiritual benefit though, beyond sometimes indirectly through the social and cultural effects. Spiritual development takes effort, it takes preparation and it takes purification. This is why shaman who use entheogens do so in a meaningful ritual. College kids who ingest magic mushrooms do not. It at least takes some grounding in a spiritual tradition and enough of a spiritually qualified mindset.
    If you're saying it is fine to use marijuana for spiritual uplifting, why is it SO completely wrong to use it in a recreational sense? What you're describing isn't what most people that smoke pot do it for anyways. You are more describing the use of alcohol, as a social lubricant. Marijuana is often used to relax, collect thoughts, and of course of spiritual experiences. Not to start a party and feel like a bad a**.

  7. #337
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    That's fine... but it's not your business to restrict my freedoms based on your own interpretations of substance use. It has those values for others and they are not feigned, but genuine, as I have described with my own experience. Your views do not justify throwing a person in jail for the long term, subjecting them to torment in the penetentary system, or dividing families or communities over it.

    Legalization benefits everyone. Except government control, industry, and the black market gangs of course.
    Don't forget the privatized prison system....

  8. #338
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    Re: Marijuna

    Was doing some Google scans on the matter .. and came across this: Street Pot Is Irrefutably Deadly

    Oh my!

    The OP goes for the jugular .. and thus the thread understandably bleeds profusely. Avatarishly speaking, I'm, of course, drawn to the letting.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  9. #339
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This doesn't answer my point. Hayek actuall=y argues why we can't simply choose all aspects of our social relationships. You don't join society, you are already born into and regulated and formed by it. By suggesting society we simply pick our own spot you are describing an atomistic view of society, one where self-sufficing, fully formed individuals just decide what interactions they want with society.
    I'm not saying that society has no influence over people or shaping them. That's why we don't need government enforcing personal morality. Society generally does a far better job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Voluntary associations are important for society, of course, as is flexibility in our associations often. But we do not simply pick our own place. Robert Nisbet must rank as the premier conservative author on social associations. As he put it;

    The conservative philosophy of liberty proceeds from the conservative philosophy of authority. It is the existence of authority in the social order that staves off encroachments of power from the political sphere. Conservatism, from Burke on, has perceived society as a plurality of authorities. There is the authority of parent over the small child, of the priest over the communicant, the teacher over the pupil, the master over the apprentice, and so on. Society as we actually observe it, is a network or tissue of such authorities; they are really numberless when we think of the kinds of authority which lie within even the smallest of human groups and relationships. Such authority may be loose, gentle, protective, and designed to produce individuality, but it is authority nevertheless. For the conservative, individual freedom lies in the interstices of social and moral authority. Only because of the restraining and guiding efforts of such authority does it become possible for human beings to sustain so liberal a political government as that which the Founding Fathers designed in this country and which flourished in England from the late seventeenth century on. Remove the social bonds, as the more zealous and uncompromising of libertarian individualists have proposed ever since William Godwin, and you emerge with, not a free but a chaotic people, not with creative but impotent individuals. Human nature, Balzac correctly wrote, cannot endure a moral vacuum.
    You mean I have used reason and common sense. We must get our thoughts and basic conceptions right before we can start leaping onto to specific examples,
    I never went against these social bonds. This is because they are largely voluntary. They may influence people and attract them toward certain paths, but they differ from government force, in that they are not coercive. That's my point; these bonds make government force largely unnecessary. Right-Libertarianism is not against all authority and hierarchy, but coercion. It is a subtle distinction, but an important one.
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  10. #340
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I'm not saying that society has no influence over people or shaping them. That's why we don't need government enforcing personal morality. Society generally does a far better job.

    You have to remember that the law is supposed to be the enforcement arm of society. It's illegal because society has deemed it impermissible.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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