View Poll Results: How should Marijuana be dealt with?

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  • Stricter federal laws must be made, and more money put to enforcing them

    13 10.83%
  • Give individual states the right to decide how to go about it

    39 32.50%
  • Legalize it through a federal law

    52 43.33%
  • Give states the right to decide about it as long as they abide by certain Federal guidelines

    16 13.33%
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Thread: Marijuana

  1. #321
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    So now you're telling me what I think? No, Wessexman, I'm not an atomist. Each person has a place in society, but it is up to people to pick that spot. We do not need government controlling our every move. Again, what happened in Amsterdam and Nevada? You have not provided any evidence of the harms caused by legalizing things like prostitution
    If it is completely up to each person to pick their spot in society then surely that makes society something very superficial and unimportant to individuals who would be self-reliant and formed outside society? Sort of sounds quite atomistic to me. A basic plank of a non-atomistic view of society is there are elements that are not simply choice.

    And again you resort to the simplistic 'we do not need government controlling our every move' line. As if I ever suggested any such thing. I'm quite a decentralist, I'm hardly going to advocate for what you keep suggesting.

    I provided analysis of why we must use a broader evaluation of those places before we come to any firm conclusions.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060101107
    Statistics are treacherous things, they need a lot of evaluation and assessment to make sense of them. One can immediately point out large wholes in using these examples. For instance they are quite limited in scope, they are also, in the case of Amsterdam, in a country which is hardly a shining moral beacon for humanity anyway. The conservative should start by considering the social effects; statistics can help, but they are far from a complete guide to such issues. We should look at those involved and the communities in which they take place, but also at their cultural and imaginative setting. Nevada is socially and culturally quite interwoven with the rest of the US, which mitigates the effects of such practices, either way. You also have not attempted to assess the amount of people using these prostitutes, who is using them and the moral effects this has on them, on the prostitutes and on their relations and close associates.

    Also prostitution is just a part of a whole cultural and social milieu. Like so called 'gay marriage', we shouldn't suggest that it would end all sexual and social morality, but it would be one more nail in the coffin. The same goes for legalised prostitution in the current. Western contexts.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-11-12 at 07:48 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #322
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    No. We have to think at a social and cultural level as well as what might be better for junkees and prostitutes.
    How is keeping Marijuana and drugs illegal better on a social and cultural level? It's not as if these laws actually prevent the behavior.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  3. #323
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    Re: Marijuna

    Marijuana smokers are not "junkies".
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  4. #324
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    How is keeping Marijuana and drugs illegal better on a social and cultural level? It's not as if these laws actually prevent the behavior.
    I'm not arguing for keeping marijuana illegal, in fact I said I'd end its prohibition. As for the rest of the drugs, many of them are completely artificial and lazy highs which are taken wholly or mostly for their own effects, as is the case with both heroin, crack and meth and party drugs like MDMA, rather than for any sort of positive contribution to a positive human activity, as is the case with alcohol which can be drunk in a convivial atmosphere where it is not the main part of the activity. In our decadent and indulgent society we do not need any more lazy and artificial ways to feel good.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-11-12 at 08:16 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #325
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    Marijuana smokers are not "junkies".
    nope. in fact, I even passed the Little Debbies on the way out of Walmart a few minutes ago.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm not arguing for keeping marijuana illegal, in fact I said I'd end its prohibition. As for the rest of the drugs, many of them are completely artificial and lazy highs which are taken wholly or mostly for their own effects, as is the case with both heroin, crack and meth and party drugs like MDMA, rather than for any sort of positive contribution to a positive human activity, as is the case with alcohol which can be drunk in a convivial atmosphere where it is not the main part of the activity. In our decadent and indulgent society we do not need any more lazy and artificial ways to feel good.
    ah so you're for legalizing Pot, just keeping the other drugs illegal. And no bang for your buck, either. Get it? Bang for your buck.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  6. #326
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    If it is completely up to each person to pick their spot in society then surely that makes society something very superficial and unimportant to individuals who would be self-reliant and formed outside society? Sort of sounds quite atomistic to me. A basic plank of a non-atomistic view of society is there are elements that are not simply choice.
    Actually, it's quite the opposite. As people like Adam Smith and Fredrich Hayek have pointed out, when people are allowed to pick their own spot, they have greater incentive to join in and support society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    And again you resort to the simplistic 'we do not need government controlling our every move' line. As if I ever suggested any such thing. I'm quite a decentralist, I'm hardly going to advocate for what you keep suggesting.
    You are arguing for government intervention in this case, and making broad arguments to support it. I'm simply using a broad argument to rebuttal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I provided analysis of why we must use a broader evaluation of those places before we come to any firm conclusions.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060101107
    You have not shown how legalizing prostitution would cause moral decay. You have spoken in broad generalities that you say apply based on no real-world evidence.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Actually, it's quite the opposite. As people like Adam Smith and Fredrich Hayek have pointed out, when people are allowed to pick their own spot, they have greater incentive to join in and support society.
    This doesn't answer my point. Hayek actuall=y argues why we can't simply choose all aspects of our social relationships. You don't join society, you are already born into and regulated and formed by it. By suggesting society we simply pick our own spot you are describing an atomistic view of society, one where self-sufficing, fully formed individuals just decide what interactions they want with society.

    Voluntary associations are important for society, of course, as is flexibility in our associations often. But we do not simply pick our own place. Robert Nisbet must rank as the premier conservative author on social associations. As he put it;

    The conservative philosophy of liberty proceeds from the conservative philosophy of authority. It is the existence of authority in the social order that staves off encroachments of power from the political sphere. Conservatism, from Burke on, has perceived society as a plurality of authorities. There is the authority of parent over the small child, of the priest over the communicant, the teacher over the pupil, the master over the apprentice, and so on. Society as we actually observe it, is a network or tissue of such authorities; they are really numberless when we think of the kinds of authority which lie within even the smallest of human groups and relationships. Such authority may be loose, gentle, protective, and designed to produce individuality, but it is authority nevertheless. For the conservative, individual freedom lies in the interstices of social and moral authority. Only because of the restraining and guiding efforts of such authority does it become possible for human beings to sustain so liberal a political government as that which the Founding Fathers designed in this country and which flourished in England from the late seventeenth century on. Remove the social bonds, as the more zealous and uncompromising of libertarian individualists have proposed ever since William Godwin, and you emerge with, not a free but a chaotic people, not with creative but impotent individuals. Human nature, Balzac correctly wrote, cannot endure a moral vacuum.
    You have not shown how legalizing prostitution would cause moral decay. You have spoken in broad generalities that you say apply based on no real-world evidence.
    You mean I have used reason and common sense. We must get our thoughts and basic conceptions right before we can start leaping onto to specific examples,
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #328
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    Re: Marijuna

    No good options really. We don't have a war on drugs now, we have a media campaign on drugs. We need to get serious and put all dealers to death on the first offense. That will seriously put a damper on the drug trade.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  9. #329
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    Re: Marijuna

    After living in India for 8 months and smoking pot and hash with sadhus, I would say my morality did the opposite of decay. It's not enough to simply compare pot to alcohol and cigarettes; neither of those have any spiritually redeeming qualities. Pot does. Rastafarians, Hindus, Yogis, Jains, and many other spiritualities the world over smoke the subspecies cannabis sativa to uplift their consciousness and arrive at spiritual virtues. But oops, sorry, I guess that's not Judeochristian enough so it doesn't count, right? Nobody wants to hear that you can smoke up and read, you know, actual holy books that elevate your consciousness? Plant based substances are not merely hallucinogens or psychedelics, they are ENTHEOGENS that people have been using for thousands of years to map existence. Their natural actions are built into human biology, and culture.

    While I don't smoke pot anymore, I will continue to defend its spiritual aspects. You don't see a group of drunks sitting around talking philosophy, but you do with people who smoke cannabis. It forces you to contemplate your own existence and your own life. It inspires you to turn off the TV and go for a walk, and think about what it means to be human. It is a psychospiritual medicine just as much as it is a physical one; it generates creative thought processes that you would not otherwise have. Pot smokers are the most non-violent substance users I have ever encountered. People who say pot users are violent, dangerous, or degenerates, are spreading lies and fear-based consciousness. I can only surmise that alcohol is legal because it makes people more stupid - and cigarettes are legal because addiction and cancer bring profit. The last thing we want is people actually turning inward and asking themselves what they are finding there.

    This argument is really bogged down by the stupid and ignorant who refuse to open their eyes and be educated on the wide use of entheogens. We have precedent being set all around the world demonstrating that drug legalization is of benefit to society - Portugal and Spain are western examples. It cleans up the addicts and the mentally ill, and it ceases persecution of the recreational or spiritual users. And yet the stupid, ignorant, pious prudes continue to feed us their empty rhetoric about control and domination of consciousness. You have ZERO RIGHT to tell me what I can put in my body on my journey to spiritual understanding in this life - none at all. I am frankly shocked that no one in the public has brought this matter to the SCOTUS on religious grounds.

    In the United States, pot is illegal because the war on drugs funds a vast array of law enforcement and authoritarian control. If drugs were legalized, people would lose their jobs virtually overnight. If cannabis becomes legal, there remains no justification for the extremely high taxation on hemp products. The textile, food, and fossil fuel industries would suffer losses overnight. Not to mention, spiritual consciousness can openly elevate, and people can discuss it without fear of retribution. The last thing our government wants is critical and imaginative thinking to increase. Our public education system has made sure of that.

    All of the modern research on cannabis shows that it does not cause lasting damage to users - if the ignorant and stupid prudes would care to even look at it, instead of clinging to what their pastors say. I am so enraged by the stupidity of opponents to drug decriminalization that I want them to just roll over and die. That is how little use I think they are to society. They serve no purpose but to further the divide of families and communities, to torment individuals who are harming no one, and to continue the black market corruption and government control over industry and money flows.

    People who are opposed to legalization show no morality that makes a damn bit of sense. I would call them the most immoral among us. Their fear and irrationality are completely useless to the greater good. If it weren't for freedom of speech, I would support their silencing. Of all the groups in politics I would say I approach hatred to, it is proponents of continued drug criminalization - and especially of pot. You are USELESS.

  10. #330
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No good options really. We don't have a war on drugs now, we have a media campaign on drugs. We need to get serious and put all dealers to death on the first offense. That will seriously put a damper on the drug trade.
    You're a moron for making such a suggestion. My next door neighbor growing up, who was 16, was a pot dealer. The idea that he should have been killed for distributing a harmless plant just shows the level of stupidity, idiocy, and lunacy endemic to your kind. You don't think before you speak, you just open your trap and shout whatever fear based non-sense decides to come out. You try to come across as an empiricist but you are anything but, since you clearly haven't seen what decriminalization has done to Spain and Portugal.

    Keep flapping your gums. You're the reason why so many Americans suffer horrible torment in the penal system.

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