View Poll Results: How should Marijuana be dealt with?

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  • Stricter federal laws must be made, and more money put to enforcing them

    13 10.83%
  • Give individual states the right to decide how to go about it

    39 32.50%
  • Legalize it through a federal law

    52 43.33%
  • Give states the right to decide about it as long as they abide by certain Federal guidelines

    16 13.33%
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Thread: Marijuana

  1. #221
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I don't think it is settled that legalising prostitution will not somewhat increase its use. Anyway, there is still the social and cultural effects of legitimising it to think about.
    "Legalizing" is not the same as "legitimizing", as the former is an objective application, and the latter subjective. BUT, since you raised it here, and in other posts, if you make a private social choice criminal (ie. folks are going to do it anyway), you have only further deligitimized respect for the law, and those who made the law. That is to create essentailly a moral hazard, in that you are now compelling more disrespect for the law, where I submit it was not necessary.


    All law must be based on morality ..........
    Incorrect. Terribly incorrect. Again you defer to the subjective. All laws must be based on respecting the rights of others to exercise their liberty. It is not for you to decide what is moral for someone else. It is only for you to defend, and campaign for, your rights.

  2. #222
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    "Legalizing" is not the same as "legitimizing", as the former is an objective application, and the latter subjective. BUT, since you raised it here, and in other posts, if you make a private social choice criminal (ie. folks are going to do it anyway), you have only further deligitimized respect for the law, and those who made the law. That is to create essentailly a moral hazard, in that you are now compelling more disrespect for the law, where I submit it was not necessary.
    This all depends if you convince people it is wrong doesn't it. It all depends on the contexts.

    Most people now, despite all the bombardment with socially liberal, do what you want, its all okay if it's 'consensual' ideology, think prostitution is wrong. Indeed it is already generally illegal. This is not an area where you will necessarily lessen general respect for the law by keeping it illegal.

    Incorrect. Terribly incorrect. Again you defer to the subjective. All laws must be based on respecting the rights of others to exercise their liberty. It is not for you to decide what is moral for someone else. It is only for you to defend, and campaign for, your rights.
    This is a moral statement. All talk of rights and respecting others liberty and so forth are moral arguments.

    And by the way, don't misuse the term subjective. Subjective just means it is of the subject.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #223
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It was still rarely accepted and even when it was it was hardly considered acceptable. I'm not saying that it is always black and white how to deal with issues like prostitution and drug use. Social and cultural context is important. You can delegitimise and marginalise it without it being illegal, but you can also use the law as a tool in this process. It all depends on the context. Prostitution is generally illegal in the West, for the to legalise it in the contexts of gross falls in morality and decency is a bad move.
    Again false, it has been accepted in many places, all over the world.


    What you are doing is confusing the importance of individuals choosing to be moral and individuals choosing what is moral. You simply create social chaos by trying to remove any sort of overarching and in depth social morality. This does not help freedom because it will stop many people striving to achieve any sort of restrictive, humanist (as opposed to humanitarian or sentimental) morality. This will lead to a loss of social cohesion, which will weaken freedom. Man is most free when he is most fully human. It is not simply in choice, but in his nature that man becomes free.

    The government, particularly in our modern, relatively statist societies, is important in terms of social morality. The position it takes will effect social morality. If it takes a neutral opinion on prostitution this means that it will harder for social morality to repudiate prostitution.
    It does not create social chaos, it creates freedom, social morality is for the people do decide, not for government to enforce. Limiting the ability of people who would want to tell people things like who I can have sex with, what I can put in my body, does not limit freedom as you would suggest, but increase it. And what does "fully human" mean? And I doubt you will be able to give a concrete answer that is a fact, it is again another opinion, what makes you feel "fully human" may make someone else feel unfulfilled.

    But that person is wrong. That person is indulging in the lower and baser aspects of human sexuality and just defending this because they like it. The government should choose sides because one side is right and one is wrong and the government is an important aspect in society and culture, particularly in modern societies. If you were to shut down government schools and drastically lessen the social reach of government and we were in a situation where there was strong social cohesion and morality then things might be different, but in the contexts it would be a bad move.
    Again, this is only your opinion, not a fact, you can't treat it like a fact because it is not. We can't have a decent debate when you treat opinion like facts. The government should keep people safe, and make sure their basic needs are met, that is it. And keeping prostitution illegal puts people in danger, so it should not be law.
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  4. #224
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    This may be a bit off topic, but why do we charge people with illegal actions for using drugs? They aren't criminals, they are sick people...
    Are you kidding?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  5. #225
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This all depends if you convince people it is wrong doesn't it. It all depends on the contexts.

    Most people now, despite all the bombardment with socially liberal, do what you want, its all okay if it's 'consensual' ideology, think prostitution is wrong. Indeed it is already generally illegal. This is not an area where you will necessarily lessen general respect for the law by keeping it illegal.
    Do you just make up stuff ? As it is the "oldest profession", where is that high horse that says that you can firstly convince folks it is wrong (immoral is the word), when it is as old as dirt ? But yet which still misses the point ? It is not for you to then criminalize where neither your rights, nor anyone else's, have been denied. I find your logic beyond pretzel.

    This is a moral statement. All talk of rights and respecting others liberty and so forth are moral arguments.

    And by the way, don't misuse the term subjective. Subjective just means it is of the subject.
    Wrong and wrong. Way wrong and wrong. Grossly misinformed.

  6. #226
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Again false, it has been accepted in many places, all over the world.
    Give us some traditional instances where it was considered completely legitimate, excepting temple prostitutes who are a different kettle of fish.



    It does not create social chaos, it creates freedom, social morality is for the people do decide, not for government to enforce. Limiting the ability of people who would want to tell people things like who I can have sex with, what I can put in my body, does not limit freedom as you would suggest, but increase it.
    What you are suggesting is basically atomism. You are suggesting that society doesn't really mean much. That the individual is a self-reliant, complete atom. If society can survive individuals having complete divergence over the most basic moral values and beliefs, then society doesn't mean much. I do not think this is the case. I think common sense shows us that man is a social animal and that your position destroys this.
    And what does "fully human" mean? And I doubt you will be able to give a concrete answer that is a fact, it is again another opinion, what makes you feel "fully human" may make someone else feel unfulfilled.
    Fully human means developing all your social, cultural, creative, moral, intellectual and spiritual potential. You always come back to simply what people feel. As Plato said some men like deformity. This is no reason to indulge them. I'm willing to argue about what is right and wrong, what is fully human, you are always trying to reduce everything to personal feelings and opinions. But you have to argue for this. You can't just always claim everything is based on these alone.


    Again, this is only your opinion, not a fact, you can't treat it like a fact because it is not. We can't have a decent debate when you treat opinion like facts. The government should keep people safe, and make sure their basic needs are met, that is it. And keeping prostitution illegal puts people in danger, so it should not be law.
    I disagree. I argue for my positions. They are fact to the degree I do a good job. The government is an important social player these days, therefore it has certain social obligations. I'd like to lessen how much of an active role it has in society, but still it will have some important roles.

    Legalising prostitution will send signals of legitimacy about it. It is therefore socially baleful, both in terms of the direct relations of prostitutes and those who use them, as well as the more general social, cultural and imaginative effects.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-09-12 at 09:40 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #227
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Are you kidding?
    Nope...

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    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  8. #228
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Are you kidding?
    I am going to have to take issue with you on this as well. They are only "criminal" in the same way that those who drank alcohol during Prohibition were "criminal", only to be then "not criminal" the day after its repeal, yet while exhibiting the same behavior. I understand the simplest argument that if it is "against the law, its criminal", but also do not think we should be so harsh in such social choices. It clearly is not as though we assaulted someone by smoking a joint.

    BTW, I detest drugs.

    I believe that if we were to embrace it rather as a sickness, we would be so very much better off in every measurable way.

  9. #229
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What I'm saying is harm isn't always direct. Harm can be based on the social, cultural and imaginative effects of legitimising such an activity.

    Prostitution even more personally prostitution effects those engaged in it and through them their relations, associations and communities.
    you insist there is indirect harm to others resulting from the exercise of victimless crimes and yet you are unable to point to any examples

    which indicates you have no point
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  10. #230
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    Re: Marijuna

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you insist there is indirect harm to others resulting from the exercise of victimless crimes and yet you are unable to point to any examples

    which indicates you have no point
    Actually I gave you a rational argument, which you completely ignored. This indicates you both have no point and cannot think well.

    Example are obvious. Alcohol drinking is a 'victimless crime' in the narrow and silly sense you are using, but its legality not only directly hurts relations, associations and communities of some of those who drink, but it also has a general social effect of creating more drinkers and causes a lot of the problems associated with drinking. I'm not sure I'd ban it, but it is an obvious example that such things can have social, cultural and imaginative effects. Although only a moron should doubt this anyway.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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