View Poll Results: Your Opinion:

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  • One federal seat belt law for everyone in the vehicle

    17 21.25%
  • One federal seat belt law, but just for children

    1 1.25%
  • Leave it up to the states to decide seat belt laws

    25 31.25%
  • There should be no seat belt laws for adults

    30 37.50%
  • Something else

    7 8.75%
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Thread: Seat Belt Laws

  1. #231
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The limitation of Freedoms should NOT be subject to a cost/benefit analysis.
    Really?

    What do you think any safety laws are based on? In fact, many laws are based on a cost/benefit analysis. Food standards set by the health department are based on cost/benefit analysis. No smoking laws for buildings are based on cost/benefit analysis. Safety inspection laws (cars, safety seats/devices, equipment, etc.) are based on cost/benefit analysis. Speed limits. Drinking age laws. Texting/talking on cell phone while driving. Some states have laws called "failing to give full time and attention" to driving (covers reading and probably putting on makeup), even if the person is able to do the activity and drive well.

    Your freedoms are always limited by their affect on others. Those limits become laws when your actions cause more harm to others than is determined acceptable when compared to the purpose of the task you are doing. Not wearing your seatbelt affects others, whereas having to wear your seatbelt doesn't really harm or affect your ability to do things necessary in your life. It is merely an inconvenience.
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  2. #232
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The limitation of Freedoms should NOT be subject to a cost/benefit analysis.
    This is a gray area, but not sure the freedom from seatbelts is a real freedom. You don't have the freedom to drive your care in the wrong direction, with the door off, with non-DOT tires, with plexiglass windshields. If you are injured, you affect the insurance rates of other people. Insurance is required by law, so you don't have the freedom from that. Trust me, I understand your sentiments and logic, but not sure in this case I totally agree. I don't like much govt inteference, but you are in a relationship with other drivers whether you like it or not. You're not totally independent to where you don't affect them should you get injured.
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  3. #233
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    This is a gray area, but not sure the freedom from seatbelts is a real freedom. You don't have the freedom to drive your care in the wrong direction, with the door off, with non-DOT tires, with plexiglass windshields. If you are injured, you affect the insurance rates of other people. Insurance is required by law, so you don't have the freedom from that. Trust me, I understand your sentiments and logic, but not sure in this case I totally agree. I don't like much govt inteference, but you are in a relationship with other drivers whether you like it or not. You're not totally independent to where you don't affect them should you get injured.
    Driving in the wrong direction holds a high likelihood of causing injury to another motorist, or create a road hazard affecting their access to the public streets/highways.
    I've seen people drive with no door.... I don't know of any specific law outside of inspection requirements that requires a door. In fact many light weight military vehicles have removable doors driven on the roads.. even outside of post.

    As for the other equipment violations... why not?
    As for insurance... it is again protecting other drivers on the roadway. Why do you think the only requirement is to have LIABILITY (which means your company covers someone else's damages.. not yours) in many areas?
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  4. #234
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Really?

    What do you think any safety laws are based on? In fact, many laws are based on a cost/benefit analysis. Food standards set by the health department are based on cost/benefit analysis. No smoking laws for buildings are based on cost/benefit analysis. Safety inspection laws (cars, safety seats/devices, equipment, etc.) are based on cost/benefit analysis. Speed limits. Drinking age laws. Texting/talking on cell phone while driving. Some states have laws called "failing to give full time and attention" to driving (covers reading and probably putting on makeup), even if the person is able to do the activity and drive well.

    Your freedoms are always limited by their affect on others. Those limits become laws when your actions cause more harm to others than is determined acceptable when compared to the purpose of the task you are doing. Not wearing your seatbelt affects others, whereas having to wear your seatbelt doesn't really harm or affect your ability to do things necessary in your life. It is merely an inconvenience.
    And pretty much every one of your examples affects other drivers.

    Other than the rare case in which someone not wearing a seat belt is actually ejected (this doesn't happen nearly as often as folks think), and another vehicle has to dodge bodies on the roadway (even more rare), how does an individual not wearing their seatbelt affect others?

    And... if the only justification is the 1 in 2000 seat-beltless crashes where an ejected person is tossed out in the road and becomes a road hazard (while their crashed vehicle somehow was not ... which would have been crashes seat belt or no seat belt).... the golly gee we should ban children from possessing scissors because they accidetally stab themselves (which happens much more than what you are suggesting).
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  5. #235
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    And pretty much every one of your examples affects other drivers.

    Other than the rare case in which someone not wearing a seat belt is actually ejected (this doesn't happen nearly as often as folks think), and another vehicle has to dodge bodies on the roadway (even more rare), how does an individual not wearing their seatbelt affect others?

    And... if the only justification is the 1 in 2000 seat-beltless crashes where an ejected person is tossed out in the road and becomes a road hazard (while their crashed vehicle somehow was not ... which would have been crashes seat belt or no seat belt).... the golly gee we should ban children from possessing scissors because they accidetally stab themselves (which happens much more than what you are suggesting).
    People can either be ejected from their car and become a road hazard or they could become a projectile within the vehicle, harming and possibly killing others in the vehicle with them even if those others were buckled up and would have otherwise survived.

    People ejected are ran over by other drivers. It may not happen a lot, but it certainly does happen. And that could effect the other driver even if the driver suffers no physical damage to themself or their car.

    And the people killed/hurt by the unbuckled person certainly are affected.

    Again, it is a cost/benefit analysis issue. Scissors are useful, even for children. But beyond that, such a law would be nearly impossible to enforce, since most of the instances of children carrying scissors are going to be while the children are in their house. However, if a child is carrying around a knife or scissors outside, I'm almost certain that some adult would step in, parents there or not, to try to protect the child.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 01-10-12 at 10:26 PM.
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  6. #236
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    People can either be ejected from their car and become a road hazard or they could become a projectile within the vehicle, harming and possibly killing others in the vehicle with them even if those others were buckled up and would have otherwise survived.

    People ejected are ran over by other drivers. It may not happen a lot, but it certainly does happen. And that could effect the other driver even if the driver suffers no physical damage to themself or their car.

    And the people killed/hurt by the unbuckled person certainly are affected.

    Again, it is a cost/benefit analysis issue. Scissors are useful, even for children. But beyond that, such a law would be nearly impossible to enforce, since most of the instances of children carrying scissors are going to be while the children are in their house. However, if a child is carrying around a knife or scissors outside, I'm almost certain that some adult would step in, parents there or not, to try to protect the child.
    Exactly... some adult....

    Not the government.....
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  7. #237
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Exactly... some adult....

    Not the government.....
    The most logical person to step in when someone is not wearing their seatbelt and it could affect others, is the government. This affects other people, like it or not. Another driver on the road cannot stop a person not wearing their seatbelt, a police officer can.

    But, more than that, seat belt laws will act basically like the no smoking with children laws. They will cause people to actually put on their seatbelt to avoid the penalty for not doing so, even if the police choose to only cite the violation as a secondary law. In states with seat belt laws, the people are way more likely to wear their seatbelts. I guarantee you that all those disgruntled about having to do so did not have to get a ticket before they started wearing their seat belt.
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  8. #238
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The most logical person to step in when someone is not wearing their seatbelt and it could affect others, is the government. This affects other people, like it or not. Another driver on the road cannot stop a person not wearing their seatbelt, a police officer can.

    But, more than that, seat belt laws will act basically like the no smoking with children laws. They will cause people to actually put on their seatbelt to avoid the penalty for not doing so, even if the police choose to only cite the violation as a secondary law. In states with seat belt laws, the people are way more likely to wear their seatbelts. I guarantee you that all those disgruntled about having to do so did not have to get a ticket before they started wearing their seat belt.
    Again, not the government's business.

    Lets ban children playing with any type of ball nearby a street.... this can cause a traffic hazard and does 500 times more often than an ejected non-seat belt wearing passenger of a crashed vehicle ever does.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  9. #239
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Somebody can ride something as dangerous as a motorcycle, risking life and limb and I'm forced to wear a seat belt in an infinitely safer vehicle? Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #240
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    Re: Seat Belt Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Somebody can ride something as dangerous as a motorcycle, risking life and limb and I'm forced to wear a seat belt in an infinitely safer vehicle? Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    That makes perfect sense until reaching the reality that if you are in an accident the emergency room - meaning myself and other taxpayers - have to pay for your hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical treatment because you're too much a lazy ass to buckle a seatbelt. Not wearing a seatbelt is just stupid as accidents will happen and even KingKong isn't strong enough to stop himself flying thru the windshield when sitting in the suicide seat (front passenger side.) It'd be different if law provided that people in accidents not wearing seatbelts are required by paramedics to just be shoved the person off the road and left there to die and then the litter of your body removed by vultures, rats and ants.

    Why should I and other taxpayers pay for your being a lazy ass?

    There are some doctors that refuse to treat motorcycle accident victims other than what is immediately necessary to preserve life if the rider does not have medical insurance covering it 100% specifically because the known dangers of motorcycles.

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