View Poll Results: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

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  • Yes

    77 91.67%
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    7 8.33%
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Thread: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

  1. #411
    global liberation

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    But I can attempt it.
    You failed. Next time don't bother, it's not like I write for you.

  2. #412
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You failed. Next time don't bother, it's not like I write for you.
    Please give me another chance I'll do better...lol
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  3. #413
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Here's where the possibility came about. The police in that instance were taken by surprise and thus under equipped for the mission. The AK-47s didn't actually give the bad guys an advantage, the rapid fire was effective in suppression of the police, but they probably still had the basic uniform with level 1 BPVs, most rifles will penetrate those vests. By the time reinforcements arrived the criminals were "dug in" so they had a tactical advantage, more cover, etc. It wasn't the weapons they used but rather it was the will to hold off the underarmed and surprised police.
    I agree the police were way under equipped but the AK type rifles were using large drums to hold big capacity of armor-piercing rounds and their caliber is high enough to penetrate car doors, which they knew. They weren't that dug in if you saw the video of the fire fight, they were right out in the open a lot wearing 40lbs of body armor, ducking behind vehicles off and on. It took ankle level shots to drop one and a wrist/hand shot on the other who shot himself after that. Also they had taken phenobarbital to calm their nerves before the robbery. So I wouldn't say it wasn't the weapons but it was a combination of will and preparation.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #414
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I agree the police were way under equipped but the AK type rifles were using large drums to hold big capacity of armor-piercing rounds and their caliber is high enough to penetrate car doors, which they knew.
    First off, drums, magazines, etc. are not that much of an advantage. Capacity is what it is, shot placement is always critical, if you have 40 rounds or 100 rounds and cannot accomplish your goal of suppression or hitting on target you are simply wasting ammunition. Rate of fire is not the advantage people think it is, you lose accuracy and limit your options to "lucky shots". AK-47s are not "super weapons" they are semi-accurate, they do however have durability, but they fire what amounts to a small rifle round, it's a large .22 for the most part which is actually smaller than a typical large game hunting rifle. Where the danger comes in is the tumble effect of the round, not the power behind it considering most hunting rifles have a larger size and more powder loaded.
    They weren't that dug in if you saw the video of the fire fight, they were right out in the open a lot wearing 40lbs of body armor, ducking behind vehicles off and on. It took ankle level shots to drop one and a wrist/hand shot on the other who shot himself after that. Also they had taken phenobarbital to calm their nerves before the robbery. So I wouldn't say it wasn't the weapons but it was a combination of will and preparation.
    If they were able to hold position they were "dug in", that comes from tactical prep. this is not a cheap shot at the police, considering they had to go on the best information available. Basically these clowns had the will to cause damage and the arms choice was a secondary consideration. Like TD stated, they were stopped using common hunting rifles, if the AKs were "super weapons" that would not have been a possibility.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  5. #415
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    First off, drums, magazines, etc. are not that much of an advantage. Capacity is what it is, shot placement is always critical, if you have 40 rounds or 100 rounds and cannot accomplish your goal of suppression or hitting on target you are simply wasting ammunition. Rate of fire is not the advantage people think it is, you lose accuracy and limit your options to "lucky shots". AK-47s are not "super weapons" they are semi-accurate, they do however have durability, but they fire what amounts to a small rifle round, it's a large .22 for the most part which is actually smaller than a typical large game hunting rifle. Where the danger comes in is the tumble effect of the round, not the power behind it considering most hunting rifles have a larger size and more powder loaded. If they were able to hold position they were "dug in", that comes from tactical prep. this is not a cheap shot at the police, considering they had to go on the best information available. Basically these clowns had the will to cause damage and the arms choice was a secondary consideration. Like TD stated, they were stopped using common hunting rifles, if the AKs were "super weapons" that would not have been a possibility.
    The drums they had were holding 75-100 rounds. I know about placement when I asked my gun crazy friend what's the most dangerous handgun and he said "the one I can hit a major artery or organ with". One assailant was stopped by SWAT using an AR-15, not hunting rifle. I saw an episode of Lock N' Load with R. Lee Ermey comparing the AK-47 with the M16 and though the M16 had the accuracy it definitely did not have the wallop on the center block.

    Attachment 67120807

    From left to right: .50 BMG, 300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester, 7.62 Soviet, 5.56 NATO, .22LR

    You're not really comparing the 7.62mm 3rd from the left to the far right .22 Long Rifle?

    I think they definitely considered their weapon choices. They had five different assault rifles modified with high capacity, armor piercing rounds. These nut jobs were loaded for bear.
    Last edited by grip; 01-06-12 at 03:16 PM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  6. #416
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The drums they had were holding 75-100 rounds. I know about placement when I asked my gun crazy friend what's the most dangerous handgun and he said "the one I can hit a major artery or organ with". One assailant was stopped by SWAT using an AR-15, not hunting rifle. I saw an episode of Lock N' Load with R. Lee Ermey comparing the AK-47 with the M16 and though the M16 had the accuracy it definitely did not have the wallop on the center block.

    Attachment 67120807

    From left to right: .50 BMG, 300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester, 7.62 Soviet, 5.56 NATO, .22LR

    You're not really comparing the 7.62mm 3rd from the left to the far right .22 Long Rifle?

    I think they definitely considered their weapon choices. They had five different assault rifles modified with high capacity, armor piercing rounds. These nut jobs were loaded for bear.
    The 5.56 is the AK47, it looks bigger because it carries a larger powder load and is extended at the tip, however it is roughly the size of a .22, the 300 Winchester, .308, .306, etc. are more common rounds used in hunting, and are larger than the 5.56. The common .22 is a varmint/small game round, whereas the 5.56 is more of a large target round but typically is less effective at stopping than the larger rounds with the same bore. The reason the AK does more damage than the M16 is that it has more tumble, i.e., it has a looser rifling which reduces spin at the muzzle of the gun the bullet flops around more as it loses velocity so it is more of a tearing/bouncing hit on target unlike the drill action of similar weapons. It's kind of like would you rather be stabbed with a sharpened or a blunted knife. Again though, the police were out gunned, the criminals had no legal right to the weapons or the armor and yet had both, this actually makes for the argument that it could happen to any of us, the difference is people are limiting our choices arbitrarily using flawed logic about "danger factors" of military weapons, the facts don't bear out that these weapons are more dangerous, rather that they have different characteristics.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #417
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The 5.56 is the AK47, it looks bigger because it carries a larger powder load and is extended at the tip, however it is roughly the size of a .22, the 300 Winchester, .308, .306, etc. are more common rounds used in hunting, and are larger than the 5.56. The common .22 is a varmint/small game round, whereas the 5.56 is more of a large target round but typically is less effective at stopping than the larger rounds with the same bore. The reason the AK does more damage than the M16 is that it has more tumble, i.e., it has a looser rifling which reduces spin at the muzzle of the gun the bullet flops around more as it loses velocity so it is more of a tearing/bouncing hit on target unlike the drill action of similar weapons. It's kind of like would you rather be stabbed with a sharpened or a blunted knife. Again though, the police were out gunned, the criminals had no legal right to the weapons or the armor and yet had both, this actually makes for the argument that it could happen to any of us, the difference is people are limiting our choices arbitrarily using flawed logic about "danger factors" of military weapons, the facts don't bear out that these weapons are more dangerous, rather that they have different characteristics.
    The AK-47 fires the 7.62 according to this source AK-47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. And I'm not even the gun enthusiast,, lol

    And the 5.56 slug from that photo appears 3 times the size of the .22 cal. I don't know LMR you're a fairly bright cookie to keep trying to wiggle out from this one. My boots on your throat and I'm not even putting pressure. No amount of word garble is going to clear up these errors.

    I'll admit crooks are going to acquire things a lawful citizen won't but if you make it too easy every bean brain can load up. I'm for the 2nd but not unlimited and never will be it's just not realistic.
    Last edited by grip; 01-06-12 at 04:32 PM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #418
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The AK-47 fires the 7.62 according to this source AK-47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. And I'm not even the gun enthusiast,, lol
    There could be a 7.62 variant, not sure as I really don't like the AK platform so I'm not fully invested in it. Wiki is open source so it's quite possible someone doesn't know that the typical AK round is comparable to the M16 Carbine, which is the 5.56. The Ak74 for my knowledge is the larger 7.62 round.

    And the 5.56 slug from that photo appears 3 times the size of the .22 cal. I don't know LMR you're a fairly bright cookie to keep trying to wiggle out from this one. My boots on your throat and I'm not even putting pressure. No amount of word garble is going to clear up these errors.
    I'm not wiggling out of anything, the cartridge is larger due to a higher powder load, the bullet is elongated and has a tip instead of the ball 22 round being compared. For instance my father owns a high powered rifle that fires tipped hunting ammo, it's got a larger cartridge, however my pistol has a short cased cartride, fires a larger round with a higher powder load, typically the rifle round will look larger but the .40 I'm firing has the larger round, however the rifle is much more accurate at longer distances and because of it's barrel characteristics will do more damage at further distances. The cartridge can be decieving.
    I'll admit crooks are going to acquire things a lawful citizen won't but if you make it too easy every bean brain can load up. I'm for the 2nd but not unlimited and never will be it's just not realistic.
    There is no excuse to outright ban small arms, there is no ballistic evidence, psychological evidence, or even legal evidence to support prior restraint.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  9. #419
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    First off, drums, magazines, etc. are not that much of an advantage. Capacity is what it is, shot placement is always critical, if you have 40 rounds or 100 rounds and cannot accomplish your goal of suppression or hitting on target you are simply wasting ammunition. Rate of fire is not the advantage people think it is, you lose accuracy and limit your options to "lucky shots". AK-47s are not "super weapons" they are semi-accurate, they do however have durability, but they fire what amounts to a small rifle round, it's a large .22 for the most part which is actually smaller than a typical large game hunting rifle. Where the danger comes in is the tumble effect of the round, not the power behind it considering most hunting rifles have a larger size and more powder loaded. If they were able to hold position they were "dug in", that comes from tactical prep. this is not a cheap shot at the police, considering they had to go on the best information available. Basically these clowns had the will to cause damage and the arms choice was a secondary consideration. Like TD stated, they were stopped using common hunting rifles, if the AKs were "super weapons" that would not have been a possibility.
    Speed is nice

    accuracy is fatal



    attributed to Wyatt Earp

  10. #420
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Speed is nice

    accuracy is fatal



    attributed to Wyatt Earp
    I'll quote again for truth. You're the guy to ask, are there 7.62 AK47 variants? It's not my preferred platform but I always understood it was 5.62 only and the 74 was the 7.62.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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