View Poll Results: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

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  • Yes

    77 91.67%
  • No

    7 8.33%
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Thread: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

  1. #351
    Sage

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Everything that you just listed is an incredibly minimal sacrifice to me. You're talking about people being inconvenienced while purchasing a luxury item. People wait longer for much more important things.

    In any case, you're missing my point about the death penalty. It's rare that an innocent person is executed, but those few lives are enough to make me not support the death penalty. It's also rare that a person needs a "cooling off" period to purchase a weapon, but those few people are enough to make me want a waiting period. Whether or not YOUR purchase puts my life at risk is irrelevant just like whether or not most death penalty criminals are guilty is irrelevant because I'm not making my decision based on you or them. I'm making my decision based on the rare cases.
    I'm fine with you going into a gun shop, purchasing a weapon, and telling the salesperson that you will pick it up in the morning. I'm fine with you attending a gun show, seeing something you like, and driving a few hundred miles to pick it up in a couple of days. I'm not fine with your desires that I do the same. Especially in view of the fact that there is nothing to indicate that these waits will prevent any criminal use of a gun. I do not consider guns to be a luxury item, but the last time I checked, I had no need to drop into a jewelery store or Ferrari dealership, purchase a diamond or a car, and come back in the morning and pick it up. There again, if that is your method of doing business, have at it.

    I doubt that whether the cooling off period is the typical half day or the 24 hours you propose is going to make any difference in the the number of premeditated murders attributable to guns. A person hell bent on committing a crime that cannot wait a half day or 24 yours is going to get it illegally from the corner gun dealer, probably at less cost.

    Your comment concerning whether or not I agree with your position concerning a wait period being of any relevance, that applies both ways.

  2. #352
    Klattu Verata Nicto
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    You, like the ones you say are anti second amendment, are limiting it according to your own ideas. There is nothing in the amendment that says a word about ordinance, or about how much damage a particular arm might cause if improperly used. Your argument is the same as any other limiting the second amendment.
    I didn't set the necessary and proper test. The necessary and proper test is found in the legal writings of the founders and certain SCOTUS precedents. Necessary in this case(not my idea, it's the law, upheld) is that you cannot blow up your neighbors nor can you negligently endanger them of such. It's the same principle of my being allowed to carry my .40 but not fire it in my back yard, my rights end at another's nose. An automatic weapon sitting in a gun closet endangers no one, so owning it is not the same as owning highly explosive materials. Proper comes from necessity and taking the steps to prove so, again, not my idea it is based on precedent. Proper dictates that the necessary restrictions do not overly or arbitrarily infringe on one's rights and it can be proven that exercise of the right would endanger someone. Again, none of that is mine, these are things found in case law and as well they have been upheld to comply with the intent of the founders. It doesn't matter what I think.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #353
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I 100% support the 2nd amendment however, I do believe it should be limited to handguns and rifles, I don't believe our founders could have imagined the incredible technology gun makers have afforded us. I see no actual reason for a US citizen to own a machine gun.
    well that is because you are clearly ignorant about weapons and "actual reason" or "need" has nothing relevant to do with rights. I don't play golf therefore I could argue I see no need for anyone to own golf clubs
    .
    a "machine gun" was far more comprehensible in 1789 than the internet, high speed printing presses and satellite communications yet those devices are within the scope of the first amendment. the advances in communication technologies is many many times greater than firearms-which still involve a small explosion (priming powder, percussion cap or primer) igniting a charge of powder which in turn discharges a bullet. Indeed, prior to the Constitution being penned, there was a weapon called the "Puckle" gun that was a rapid fire weapon. Though it was not as fast as modern machine guns or engine driven gatling style guns, it certainly illustrated that advances in the rapidity of bullet discharge by a single weapon were on the horizon.

    James Puckle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I would note that almost every major city and every state issues 'machine guns' to civilian employees thus creating a rather strong estoppel argument against those same entities claiming that such weapons in the hands of civilians are an abomination or too dangerous

  4. #354
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well that is because you are clearly ignorant about weapons and "actual reason" or "need" has nothing relevant to do with rights. I don't play golf therefore I could argue I see no need for anyone to own golf clubs
    .
    a "machine gun" was far more comprehensible in 1789 than the internet, high speed printing presses and satellite communications yet those devices are within the scope of the first amendment. the advances in communication technologies is many many times greater than firearms-which still involve a small explosion (priming powder, percussion cap or primer) igniting a charge of powder which in turn discharges a bullet. Indeed, prior to the Constitution being penned, there was a weapon called the "Puckle" gun that was a rapid fire weapon. Though it was not as fast as modern machine guns or engine driven gatling style guns, it certainly illustrated that advances in the rapidity of bullet discharge by a single weapon were on the horizon.

    James Puckle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I would note that almost every major city and every state issues 'machine guns' to civilian employees thus creating a rather strong estoppel argument against those same entities claiming that such weapons in the hands of civilians are an abomination or too dangerous
    Constantly being hostile over issues never makes your points more clear. While you bring up a good point about telecommunications and such in the 1st amendment, the 1st amendment and the rights it carries alone does not give you ability to kill or severely injure a dozen+ people with one clip. As for civilian employees having full-automatic rifles in every single major city, please find me what you refer to for NYC, Jersey City, Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Louisville, Atlanta, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Francisco. I'm not going to doubt your claim, would just like to read about it myself.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  5. #355
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Constantly being hostile over issues never makes your points more clear. While you bring up a good point about telecommunications and such in the 1st amendment, the 1st amendment and the rights it carries alone does not give you ability to kill or severely injure a dozen+ people with one clip. As for civilian employees having full-automatic rifles in every single major city, please find me what you refer to for NYC, Jersey City, Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Louisville, Atlanta, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Francisco. I'm not going to doubt your claim, would just like to read about it myself.
    1) possession does not mean killing-

    2) with a car of a can of gasoline you have the ability to kill far more people

    3) you are unaware that police officers , IRS agents, sheriffs are CIVILIANS?

    4) against unarmed innocents full auto is not "more deadly" than other common types of weapon actions

  6. #356
    Sage

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I'm fine with you going into a gun shop, purchasing a weapon, and telling the salesperson that you will pick it up in the morning. I'm fine with you attending a gun show, seeing something you like, and driving a few hundred miles to pick it up in a couple of days. I'm not fine with your desires that I do the same. Especially in view of the fact that there is nothing to indicate that these waits will prevent any criminal use of a gun. I do not consider guns to be a luxury item, but the last time I checked, I had no need to drop into a jewelery store or Ferrari dealership, purchase a diamond or a car, and come back in the morning and pick it up. There again, if that is your method of doing business, have at it.
    Unless your job requires you to have a gun, then a gun is, by definition, a luxury item because you don't need it. And you're not being fine with it has nothing to do with my decision-making process. My decision making process isn't about you, it's about the few people who might die because someone needed to cool off and frankly they're a lot more important than someone with a patience problem.

    I doubt that whether the cooling off period is the typical half day or the 24 hours you propose is going to make any difference in the the number of premeditated murders attributable to guns. A person hell bent on committing a crime that cannot wait a half day or 24 yours is going to get it illegally from the corner gun dealer, probably at less cost.

    Your comment concerning whether or not I agree with your position concerning a wait period being of any relevance, that applies both ways.
    "Doubt" isn't good enough. Unless you're certain and you can show me that no one has ever done an impulsive gun purchase/murder/attempted murder, then my argument still stands. It just turns out that I care more about potential lives than impatient people.

  7. #357
    global liberation

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Unless your job requires you to have a gun, then a gun is, by definition, a luxury item because you don't need it.
    hahaha. We don't NEED anything that our (government) job does not require!

    hahaha

  8. #358
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    There is no poll option I feel comfortable with.

    I'm very anti-gun and I am in favor of tight restriction. But I am not American and believe it's a matter up to Americans to decide what to do in America.

    So it's not a simple "yes or no question" after all. :P
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  9. #359
    global liberation

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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    There is no poll option I feel comfortable with. I'm very anti-gun and I am in favor of tight restriction. But I am not American and believe it's a matter up to Americans to decide what to do in America. So it's not a simple "yes or no question" after all. :P
    Do you also believe that it is up to Insanians to decide what to do in Insania? What a cop-out... relative morality and all that. Don't judge me and I won't judge you = cowardice.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 01-05-12 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #360
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Do you also believe that it is up to Insanians to decide what to do in Insania? What a cop-out.
    No. Not in general. But on this question, yes.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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