View Poll Results: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

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  • Yes

    77 91.67%
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Thread: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

  1. #341
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's actually a super short wait period. Some go up to 2-3 weeks. In any case, the purpose of a delay period is the rare cases where someone does need to cool off.
    Which is complete idiocy. ask anyone who is involved in this area-if you are premeditated enough to go to a gun store, fill out the paperwork, etc you are no longer "in the heat of passion. even in a gun store where the owners used to be my clients and where I have spent thousands of dollars and get the VIP treatment, I have never been able to buy a gun (including the 30 minute drive) in less than two hours.

    If you are a VIP that almost always means you own other guns which means the waiting period is idiotic-if I was "in the heat of passion" I'd pick one of the dozens of guns I currently own

    if I have NEVER Bought a gun before there is no way I am going to be able to buy a weapon from the type of dealer who would be able to or subject to the waiting period in a short amount of time.

    merely reading the 4473 and filling it out correctly so it passes the clerk's review is gonna take a newbie 15 minutes

    how do I know this

    well I have seen over 10,000 guns sold in my life and have sold a few hundred myself. back when I represented a major league gun dealer I often would help it sells at big Ohio gun shows.

    I also spend a couple hours (min) a week at a range which also sells more firearms than any other dealer in the greater cincinnati area. the Staff often asks me for advice on weapons unfamiliar to the clerk since I tend to know far far more than the 25-35 year olds who make up the majority of the staff. and I have watched thousands of transactions involving form 4473s

  2. #342
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's actually a super short wait period. Some go up to 2-3 weeks. In any case, the purpose of a delay period is the rare cases where someone does need to cool off.
    That seems like a flimsy reason.

    If a 15min wait after filling out whatever paperwork is necessary doesn't cool someone off, then I'm not sure a 24 hour wait would be much better. Sure as hell Iíve never stayed upset for that long, especially if Iím filling out paperwork (well, I might be a bit ticked at the paperwork, butÖ).

    Then again, Iíve never been mad enough to even consider killing someone that I can recall, soÖ

    If someone can stay in a killing rage or something for 24 hours, Iím thinking they have other issues.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #343
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That seems like a flimsy reason.

    If a 15min wait after filling out whatever paperwork is necessary doesn't cool someone off, then I'm not sure a 24 hour wait would be much better. Sure as hell I’ve never stayed upset for that long, especially if I’m filling out paperwork (well, I might be a bit ticked at the paperwork, but…).

    Then again, I’ve never been mad enough to even consider killing someone that I can recall, so…

    If someone can stay in a killing rage or something for 24 hours, I’m thinking they have other issues.
    You are right

    TPD is just making that up and its complete and utter horse poop.

    the main reason for a waiting period was originally that the cops couldn't do an instant background check

    that might have been true 40 years ago but its BS now. when you get pulled over by the Po Po for speeding, the cop does a check on you that is as thorough as anything that can be done in several days.

  4. #344
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    You are right

    TPD is just making that up and its complete and utter horse poop.

    the main reason for a waiting period was originally that the cops couldn't do an instant background check

    that might have been true 40 years ago but its BS now. when you get pulled over by the Po Po for speeding, the cop does a check on you that is as thorough as anything that can be done in several days.
    As an only vaguely related side-note, I recall this amusing story...

    A CE (computer engineer) that used to work where I do was rushing to work one day to fix a State Police server that had gone down.

    Got stopped for speeding, and after handing over his info, the cop went to look him up...but was unable to…because the system was down.

    After some explanation, he got a police escort to work.

    Last edited by The Mark; 01-05-12 at 12:14 AM.
    Education.

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  5. #345
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That seems like a flimsy reason.

    If a 15min wait after filling out whatever paperwork is necessary doesn't cool someone off, then I'm not sure a 24 hour wait would be much better. Sure as hell Iíve never stayed upset for that long, especially if Iím filling out paperwork (well, I might be a bit ticked at the paperwork, butÖ).

    Then again, Iíve never been mad enough to even consider killing someone that I can recall, soÖ

    If someone can stay in a killing rage or something for 24 hours, Iím thinking they have other issues.
    That's why I said "rare" cases. Another thing that's also rare is innocent people being killed by the death penalty, but I don't support that because of those rare cases. To me, in both instances, a lost life is worth a sacrifice, particularly a minimal sacrifice, and having to wait 24 hours is an incredibly minimal sacrifice. I tend to not to consider dead people "flimsy" reasons.

  6. #346
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    That's why I said "rare" cases. Another thing that's also rare is innocent people being killed by the death penalty, but I don't support that because of those rare cases. To me, in both instances, a lost life is worth a sacrifice, particularly a minimal sacrifice, and having to wait 24 hours is an incredibly minimal sacrifice. I tend to not to consider dead people "flimsy" reasons.
    A waiting period is not necessarily an incredibly minimal sacrifice. A 24 hour wait eliminates the possibility of purchasing a firearm at a gun show on Sunday as many of the vendors are from out of the area, and therefore will not be available in 24 hours for delivery. In any event, a 15 minute wait for a background check meaning a 15 minute for a purchase is also a myth. There are two forms to fill out (In Virginia), both which will require some time to read, fill out, and sign. The info is fed into the system, and the wait is whatever it is. From a few minutes to a few days if there is a glitch somewhere, either in the system or your paperwork. All in all, including driving time, wait time in the gun store, paperwork, and sale, I would say most of a half day should be allotted. More if the gun is purchased on a gun show Saturday. Your approval gets in line.

    I've mentioned this before, but there is no gun show loophole. Any gun purchased from a FFL dealer is subject to the same check as if I bought it in a store. The exception is collectors guns and personally owned guns. At the last show I attended, I saw only a couple of personally owned guns. No one buys a hundred year old sidearm for the purpose of committing a crime.

    I no longer support the death penalty due to the potential for error. But this is different than a gun purchase. My purchase in no way puts your life at risk.

  7. #347
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    A waiting period is not necessarily an incredibly minimal sacrifice. A 24 hour wait eliminates the possibility of purchasing a firearm at a gun show on Sunday as many of the vendors are from out of the area, and therefore will not be available in 24 hours for delivery. In any event, a 15 minute wait for a background check meaning a 15 minute for a purchase is also a myth. There are two forms to fill out (In Virginia), both which will require some time to read, fill out, and sign. The info is fed into the system, and the wait is whatever it is. From a few minutes to a few days if there is a glitch somewhere, either in the system or your paperwork. All in all, including driving time, wait time in the gun store, paperwork, and sale, I would say most of a half day should be allotted. More if the gun is purchased on a gun show Saturday. Your approval gets in line.

    I've mentioned this before, but there is no gun show loophole. Any gun purchased from a FFL dealer is subject to the same check as if I bought it in a store. The exception is collectors guns and personally owned guns. At the last show I attended, I saw only a couple of personally owned guns. No one buys a hundred year old sidearm for the purpose of committing a crime.

    I no longer support the death penalty due to the potential for error. But this is different than a gun purchase. My purchase in no way puts your life at risk.
    Everything that you just listed is an incredibly minimal sacrifice to me. You're talking about people being inconvenienced while purchasing a luxury item. People wait longer for much more important things.

    In any case, you're missing my point about the death penalty. It's rare that an innocent person is executed, but those few lives are enough to make me not support the death penalty. It's also rare that a person needs a "cooling off" period to purchase a weapon, but those few people are enough to make me want a waiting period. Whether or not YOUR purchase puts my life at risk is irrelevant just like whether or not most death penalty criminals are guilty is irrelevant because I'm not making my decision based on you or them. I'm making my decision based on the rare cases.

  8. #348
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    I 100% support the 2nd amendment however, I do believe it should be limited to handguns and rifles, I don't believe our founders could have imagined the incredible technology gun makers have afforded us. I see no actual reason for a US citizen to own a machine gun.
    "Weíre going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and thatís crazy." -Reagan

  9. #349
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Many people have a movie-fantasy view about guns and their fighting off hordes of terrorists or some action shootout with evildoers in their home. It is just that, fantasy. In those fantascies they invision being heroic for killing bad people like an action hero. Unfortunately, even many police officers have such view. Among my jobs is to train officers to think otherwise and instead real applications and correct usages of firearms in real-world terms.

    However, it is more dangerous a view for citizens rather than officers. Officers understand the consequences of shooting someone dead and of doing so wrongly. Citizens don't and the overwhelming number of gun-deaths in homes are so-called "accidental" deaths.


    Your comment about preferring rocks over a rubber bullet then backed up by metal bullets just indicates your fantasy only allows senarios of killing armed assailants as an action hero and no understand of mental-physical reaction times, impact force or any any reality other than you as the action hero.

    Unlike your mono-load view, my firearms are loaded each with a variety of ammo, which I will change for the circumstances of carry of potential usage. For example, 1st round rubber bullet, then hollow point (stopping power) and the next steel jacketed (for penetration) etc. That is my 1911 45s. For shotguns, the diversity is even greater. But, then, unlike you, I can fire multiple rounds and even go through multiple clips rather quickly and accurately - the latter being more important.

    Otherwise for your comment expressing your opposition to multiple type rounds in your firearm, I gather you have a particularly weak finger and can only manage pulling off one shot every few seconds and therefore you couldn't to fire a second lethal round for many seconds.

    At close range any marksman could not only knock anyone down with a rubber bullet, but kill someone with one. You really don't know what you're talking about comparing a rock to a rubber bullet. They are considered "semi lethal." Depends where they hit and at what velocity.

    I seriously doubt you'll ever had the situation where you are Matt Dillon in a quick draw contest with the villian, but that's what you envision.
    There are so many presumptions in this post about me personally that I feel compelled to rebut:

    Contrary to your opinion, I have no movie fantasy, no desire to get into a shootout, fight off terrorists. I don't envision being heroic, in fact, I would prefer to never have to fire my self defense weapons for their intended purpose. The only time I have ever fired my weapons in defense was to stop a vicious attack by two dogs on a young boy. Hardly heroic, and not a movie fantasy. Contrary to your opinion I do understand the consequences of killing a person, rightly or wrongly. Most CCW holders do. Your suggestion that legal gun owners are involved in more accidental deaths than other groups is false. I would like a reference to any any substantiation of any of this paragraph.

    My comment about preferring rocks over rubber bullets was not an endorsement of rocks as a weapon, but rather my lack of endorsement of rubber bullets. Rubber bullets may be OK for LEO crowd control, but I don't do that kind of work. Ditto my mono load view as opposed to your multi load view. I doubt that any home invader or auto hijacker is going to wait around while I change loads for the purpose. LEO have that luxury, I do not.

    Frankly, you haven't a clue how fast I can get off multiple rounds accurately, nor do you have a clue how much training, experience, range time, or mental preparation I have. I don't have a particularly weak finger, and can fire off 5 shots from my LCR in far less time than you imply, and I do not have, or need, multiple clips, speed loaders, or high capacity magazines. By the time my revolvers are empty, the fight will be over, and someone will be disabled or dead. I prefer revolvers as I am more familiar with them, and consider them safer and more reliable. I also have enough range time to hone my skills and my confidence to the point that will fulfill my needs in self defense.

    You are dead damn wrong in your assumption that I consider myself to ever be in a quick draw situation with Matt Dillon. Not my purpose with a firearm. Self defense is.

    I could outline my experience qualifications for you, but I won't bother. Not relevant to this post, nor is your personal attack.

  10. #350
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    Re: Are pro-2nd Amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Not arguing for any of that at all, what I'm saying is you cannot ban something properly in the U.S. without having a very valid case. Ammunition is not ordnance, neither is a propane cannister or even aerosol cans, ammunition can blow up, but it isn't it's primary function, same with flamable materials. Ordnance has one function, detonate and destroy which is the reason it can be restricted. Improperly storing flamable household items might cause a minor fire or explosion, improperly storing a mortar round will cause a massive one, as well you can't really use most of the crew served weapons for an effective attack without injuring or killing innocents if used properly, unlike a firearm or sword or other small arms. So no, I am not at all sounding anti-second.
    You, like the ones you say are anti second amendment, are limiting it according to your own ideas. There is nothing in the amendment that says a word about ordinance, or about how much damage a particular arm might cause if improperly used. Your argument is the same as any other limiting the second amendment.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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