View Poll Results: Do you vote?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes: in all elections (national and local)

    60 61.22%
  • Yes: but only in national and some local

    17 17.35%
  • Yes: but only national

    2 2.04%
  • Maybe: it depends on the election

    7 7.14%
  • No: I'm not old enough, yet.

    1 1.02%
  • No: not at all

    5 5.10%
  • No: I'm not legally permitted

    1 1.02%
  • Other

    5 5.10%
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Thread: Do you vote? (poll)

  1. #151
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It does support my position, and I also said our system would be more representative with less apathetic citizens.
    How when the system's lack of representation is what causes the apathy?

    There is an option, work to change the system, all you need is enough people to support your position.
    This is false. Gerrymandering prevents any such attempts form working.

    Rebellion is no better option because you still have to gain the support of enough people to support your position.
    "Enough people" is a far cry from "a majority of people".

    The only issue that affects rebellion is whether or not the status quo is bad enough that it is worth risking one's life in order to change it vs. Whether or not people think the status quo is good enough to think it is worth risking their life to preserve it.

    If the former outweighs the latter, violent rebellion can be successful without having anywhere close to majority support.

    To explain using the choosing a direction analogy. If there are 20 people making the choice, and 11 decide on one direction, but only 1 of them is actually willing to kill and die to support that choice while 6 of the 9 who voted differently are willing to kill and die to support their choice, rebellion is easily achieved despite only having 30% in favor of it.

    It may be more difficult to convince 2 people to change votes than it is to rebel.



    I think maybe why other countries seem better represented to you, is that many other countries people are more enlightened than Americans. When we are as enlightened as other people, so will be our representative government. Americans are pretty far to the right politically compared to most of the industrialized world. Its not surprising to me that our representative government reflects this.
    They are better represented because their systems are one's that allow them to be better represented. Simple as that. Whether I agree or disagree with their politics has no bearing on a simple analysis of representation.

    The reason they seem more enlightened to you is simply because you tend to agree with their politics. Don't allow subjective agreement with tehir politics to cause you to ignore a systemic issue in our own government.

    Even if the majority of people in the US were more enlightened by your standards, our government would remain one that has low representation unless there were major systemic changes employed regarding our election system.

    Enlightenment has no bearing on the fact that the system is designed so that it is less representative.





    I've already noted that voter apathy hinders democracy.
    Yeah, you said that. You failed to do a single thing to support that idea, but you certainly said it.

    I, however, have demonstrated how our system is not a representative one and that these systemic problems are the root cause of voter apathy.






    One of the most important things I learned in Government class was that Democracy is not a lazy man's government, it requires active participation to work, and sometimes that involves protest.
    And one of the most important things I learned in government class was that the US isn't really a democracy.





    If more people had voted for Gore in enough states, that would not have been the case.
    Do you actually think that this helps your position? The part I have bolded should be a clear indicator that it doesn't.



    How did the other countries you prefer get to multi-party representation?
    Depends on the country.

    In many cases, the same way we got to our minimally-representative system: violent rebellion.

    In others, they created/adopted a new form of government based on proportional systems.

  2. #152
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    I vote in every election I'm entitled to vote in. Currently that means EU parliamentary elections, UK general elections, and Spanish municipal elections.

    Oh, and in Eurovision Song Contest tele-votes.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  3. #153
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    How when the system's lack of representation is what causes the apathy?
    Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


    This is false. Gerrymandering prevents any such attempts form working.
    The independents elected to public office suggest otherwise.



    "Enough people" is a far cry from "a majority of people".
    The only issue that affects rebellion is whether or not the status quo is bad enough that it is worth risking one's life in order to change it vs. Whether or not people think the status quo is good enough to think it is worth risking their life to preserve it.

    If the former outweighs the latter, violent rebellion can be successful without having anywhere close to majority support.

    To explain using the choosing a direction analogy. If there are 20 people making the choice, and 11 decide on one direction, but only 1 of them is actually willing to kill and die to support that choice while 6 of the 9 who voted differently are willing to kill and die to support their choice, rebellion is easily achieved despite only having 30% in favor of it.

    It may be more difficult to convince 2 people to change votes than it is to rebel.
    If you expect to win a civil war, a majority would come in handy I would think.





    They are better represented because their systems are one's that allow them to be better represented. Simple as that. Whether I agree or disagree with their politics has no bearing on a simple analysis of representation.

    The reason they seem more enlightened to you is simply because you tend to agree with their politics. Don't allow subjective agreement with tehir politics to cause you to ignore a systemic issue in our own government.

    Even if the majority of people in the US were more enlightened by your standards, our government would remain one that has low representation unless there were major systemic changes employed regarding our election system.

    Enlightenment has no bearing on the fact that the system is designed so that it is less representative.
    I disagree, I think it is only possible for a representative government to be as enlightened as those it represents.




    Depends on the country.

    In many cases, the same way we got to our minimally-representative system: violent rebellion.

    In others, they created/adopted a new form of government based on proportional systems.
    Looks like you need a civil war or a whole lot of people that agree we need to change to a proportional system. It might even take a.............majority!

    This seems to be a "catch 22" situation.
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  4. #154
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
    The egg. Evolutionarily speaking, Eggs certainly predate chickens. By a very, very large margin.




    The independents elected to public office suggest otherwise.
    The fact that they are exceedingly rare (despite the fact that thereare about as many independents as there are members of the two parties in the country) indicates that my statement is very accurate.

    About a third of all people in the US are independents. Less than a third of one percent of federally elected people are independents.

    Just because there are very rare exceptions doesn't mean that it isn't the case.




    If you expect to win a civil war, a majority would come in handy I would think.
    Depends on the situation and the will of the population to fight.





    I disagree, I think it is only possible for a representative government to be as enlightened as those it represents.
    That's peachy.

    But the question is why do you think degree enlightenment (by your subjectively defined standards of enlightenment) matters in a discussion about how represetnative a government is?







    Looks like you need a civil war or a whole lot of people that agree we need to change to a proportional system. It might even take a.............majority!
    True. And if you had bothered to understand what I've been saying, you'd see that nothing about that statement conflicts with what I've been saying in any way shape or form.

    This seems to be a "catch 22" situation.
    If it seems that way to you, it's only because you have chosen to not understand what you've been arguing against.
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  5. #155
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But the question is why do you think degree enlightenment (by your subjectively defined standards of enlightenment) matters in a discussion about how represetnative a government is?
    I haven't been convinced our government doesn't represent our people's values and goals as well as another country represents their people's values and goals.

    More enlightened, more progressive, more socially evolved, call it what you will. The term is not important. It all comes down to the fact that we are a somewhat backward people compared to some countries that have socially evolved (grown) more than we have. So it stands to reason to me that our government is somewhat backward compared to those countries where the people are more socially evolved, exactly because it is representative of who we are.
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-16-12 at 06:44 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #156
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Seems strange to ask individuals to vote on whether they do or do not vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    There were, by most estimates, 500 Nazis in Charlottesville. One of them went homicidal. Not all Nazis are violent extremists. You are trying to rationalize your hatred and it's simply not rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    as I noted, its better that 10 nutjobs get guns than one good person be wrongly disarmed.

  7. #157
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I haven't been convinced our government doesn't represent our people's values and goals as well as another country represents their people's values and goals.

    33% of the country are neither democrats or republicans. Less than more than 99% of our federal representatives are either democrats or republicans.

    What else do you need to convince you that it is not very representative?

    More enlightened, more progressive, more socially evolved, call it what you will.
    all of those things are subjectively determine dy you. They have no bearing on the representation discussion.


    The term is not important.
    For the purposes of this discussion, neither is the concept.

    It all comes down to the fact that we are a somewhat backward people compared to some countries that have socially evolved (grown) more than we have.
    By your estimation.

    So it stands to reason to me that our government is somewhat backward compared to those countries where the people are more socially evolved, exactly because it is representative of who we are.
    That's circular logic. You are including your premise in your conclusion. Of course it seems to stand to reason when you do that. Doesn't change the fact that it is invalid logic designed to reach a pre-determined conclusion.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    33% of the country are neither democrats or republicans. Less than more than 99% of our federal representatives are either democrats or republicans.
    Democrats and Republicans come in many varieties, just like the people they represent. Some are far left, some are liberal, some are green, some are in the middle, some are conservative, and some are far right.

    What else do you need to convince you that it is not very representative?
    How about some examples of how our government is acting in a way that is not representative of the people it represents?



    all of those things are subjectively determine dy you. They have no bearing on the representation discussion.

    They most definitely do, as government can be no better than the people it represents.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #159
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Democrats and Republicans come in many varieties, just like the people they represent. Some are far left, some are liberal, some are green, some are in the middle, some are conservative, and some are far right.
    The one variety they don't come in, can't come in, is Independent. Regardless of what they claim their views are in order to get votes, they still tend vote along partisan lines while in office.



    How about some examples of how our government is acting in a way that is not representative of the people it represents?
    You were given one example (the ultimate example). You keep trying to ignore it.


    They most definitely do, as government can be no better than the people it represents.
    But it can certainly be worse than it's people by not adequately representing it's people.

    Our government doesn't have representation for at least a third of it's people.
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  10. #160
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    Re: Do you vote? (poll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The one variety they don't come in, can't come in, is Independent. Regardless of what they claim their views are in order to get votes, they still tend vote along partisan lines while in office.
    That doesn't follow what I have seen. For example, a majority of Democrats in congress voted against the war in Iraq, independent of the party leaders who supported AOF in Iraq. If they had been independents, instead of Democrats, how would the end result have been any different?


    You were given one example (the ultimate example). You keep trying to ignore it.
    Refresh my memory, please.




    Our government doesn't have representation for at least a third of it's people.
    Not surprising, given the percentage of people that do not vote. You have to sit at the table if you want to be a part of the discussion.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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