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Was the War in Iraq worth it?

Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 19.6%
  • No

    Votes: 86 80.4%

  • Total voters
    107
by this "logic" we should next invade north korea and free that people from their forced starvation

Of course we should, if it could be accomplished without him nuking on his way out. He might wanna ride the firey chariot; dude's nuts. Anyway, I've explained this so many times...

Priorities. We gotta have 'em. We cannot do everything all at once. We should start (as we have) with countries that have both the infrastructure for democratic process and natural resources capable of nation building. For example: though many African countries could use some liberation, there is neither the infrastructure nor natural resources for Asian Tiger style development. So, I hope you can understand that it is impossible to do everything at once and priorities are of utmost importance in a sustained drive for world freedom.

Iran is literally surrounded and finds itself abandoned even by neighbors. Absolutely no one would come to the aid of the Iranian government. They have been properly isolated geopolitically. They are in violation of numerous UNSCRs. They are struggling with internal control. The time is now. One more step forward in world freedom, before it's too late.
 
The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.
 
The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.

So what form of government would you have proposed instead, pray tell? I mean, first you say we should set up Western-style institutions and protect religious diversity, then you say that democracy doesn't work. Which is it?

You say we should have inculcated the Iraqis with Western values, but then say they are not suited for democracy. Which is it? Because in my mind, Western values are democratic values.
 
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Does anyone know if Iran has sent us a thank you card for taking out their enemy? Now their more extremist version of Islam gets to flourish in the region thanks to us. I'm sure that makes us safer. And the goal was to make the world safer for Americans. I'm sure glad it's "mission accomplished."

The flip side of that was that the US supported Iraq for a very long time due in large part to it's "less extreme" form of islam. Where did that get us and the world?
 
No. But the Iraq War wasn't about halting geocide now in and of itself now, was it? However, if it had been such and there was a global effort from around the world to stop Saddam from committing genocide, ala, Adolff Hitler killing the Jews, I would have been all for it! But it wasn't.

The primary reason GWB went into Iraq wasn't to stop genocide; it was to stop Saddam from partnering with potential terrorist who likely would use weapons of mass destruction against America. Halting genocide was a "sweetner"...a reason to convince people here and abroad that his cause for invading Iraq was just. It wasn't.

Regardless, we're talking about a leader of a nation that had committed genocide. We should have done more during, but removing him after was still worthwhile.
 
The 'War with Iraq" was definitely worth it. It was well planned, well executed, over in days and ousted a brutal dictator. Had they properly managed post-war ops and executed a timely withdrawal, we would have been gone by 2008 and the region would be a far more stable place.
 
What inn the hell are you talking about? We did stay on the sideline during the genocide. Stood perfectly still and watched it. Waited until it long ended, after the country had suffered through all the worse, and then, and only then, brough war to add injury to injury. That is why human rights grouops, groups who begged us to interfer when the genocide was happening, opposed us when we went in in 2003. We just made sure even more people were killed.

And that was wrong. I was replying to a "it didn't affect us, why would we care?" comment.
 
But pushing Saddam's army out of Kuwait isn't at question here. The Kuwaiti government asked for our help - specially, their King asked for President Bush's help directly. So, comparing the liberation of Kuwait to the Iraqi invasion by "W" are two completely different things.

I wasn't comparing the two. I was talking about the first, in reply to a statement about the first.
 
The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations about Islam. What about the rest of the Islamic world that sees successful democracies and Turkey or Indonesia?

Also you over estimate our ability to turn around into your "ideal" country, the matter of "civilizing" a people isn't that simple nor is it that quick. History is full of examples of one group of people trying to tear apart another group from its history, culture, national identity, in fact its very essence. Set up a puppet government? Sure why not, thats fairly easily, but getting the people to actually follow along with that government is an entirely different matter. There is no way in hell you are going to take even the youngest Soldier, when we are talking about training the military, and remove his life previous to his introduction into the Army and teach him a culture very different from his own.

Islam is no more opposed to democracy than any other religion, and its not a culture's religion that gives it the ability to be democratic or not its their people, their history, and their culture. Simply because Islam is part of their history, culture, and identity, which is a major hurdle for democracy, does NOT mean Islam is the only problem. For example in the Bible there is no mention of any of the democratic and liberal theories which were created and developed throughout centuries to finally manifest in the types of democracies we see today. Religion is a big part of their lives, like its a big part of ours, but its not the only defining feature of Muslim's existence, just like we don't stone people for adultery even though its in the Bible, so can Muslims ignore some of the more gruesome portions of their holy book if their culture allowed it.

If Western culture didn't have the same kind of great thinkers that it did, we may be just like the dictatorial countries of the Middle East.

By the way if you want an idea of how hard it would be to de-Islamify Iraq, think of how hard it would be to de-Christianize you. The only way to de-Islamify Iraq is to depopulate its country.
 
The cost of oil was supposed to go down, if we "liberated" Iraq.

instead its up. WAY up.

so, from that perspective, the war was a failure.
 
The 'War with Iraq" was definitely worth it. It was well planned, well executed, over in days and ousted a brutal dictator. Had they properly managed post-war ops and executed a timely withdrawal, we would have been gone by 2008 and the region would be a far more stable place.

You know what they say, Vance. Taking territory is easy. Holding it is hard.
 
According to the fab four (Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Powell), the war in Iraq kept us from finding out that the smoking gun was a mushroom cloud. After all, they had information from a top secret operative liar, code named Sleeze Ball.

Colon Powell had actual satellite photographs of Iraqi factories that were producing WMDs like they were going out of style. This was obvious because they showed truck movement at night. Only the US and our allies are allowed to work at night.

We had a whole coalition of allies ready to battle the axis of evil and show off military prowess in a shock and awe campaign against a man who had tried to kill W's Daddy.

Those three things alone make it clear to me that the Iraq war was not only necessary, but prudent.

But don't ask an armchair General like me, ask a Vet who will never need to buy socks again.
 
You know what they say, Vance. Taking territory is easy. Holding it is hard.
Holding it was never the objective. We just did a lousy job of post war stabilization. They held elections 2 years after the war. We should have told them they had 5 years to establish a government, police force, and re-train their military. Proper motivation, I have no doubt they could have done it as well by 2008 as they can tomorrow.
 
The cost of oil was supposed to go down, if we "liberated" Iraq.

Who told you that? And do you think Iraq is more liberal today than under Saddam.



...We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations...

Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.

For the record, I'm a bigtime hawk but I'm not with that.



I think we did as well as can be expected given the unprecidented nature of the endeavor and the almost total lack of social capital (educated and non-brainwashed people) remaining in the country.
 
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...The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations...

...Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.

wow, you seem to view Islam as no different than Naziism. Sorry to hear that, as its illogical, bigoted, & ignorant.
 
You're opening a far bigger discussion about the worldwide struggle against communism and the associated paranoia. Regardless of the relationship with South Korea/Vietnam...they were our allies and they requested assistance.



The answer is yes. If they felt we were conducting an unjustified act, they surely had the right. The reality is that not to many people were Saddam's fans regardless of the few that benefited from his empowerment. Even they knew he was a scourge. An even greater truth is that there are not too many countries willing to risk open engagement with the US over any issue, no matter how "right" they think it is.

Besides, America's government's first responsibility is to protect America's interests. No matter how unsavory the idea of "fighting for oil" is...oil is a fundamental resource in the American economy, and loosing it would could grievous harm to the country. Sure, our dependence on it is mostly our own fault, but it doesn't change the fact that we are dependent on it. Beyond this, America is moving toward supporting the spread of Democracy, and that's not a bad thing. History shows that Democratic governments rarely engage each other in warfare. Promoting the spread of Democracy is necessary in the spread of world peace.


To me, the biggest disappointment is that we have not established a permanent presence in Iraq and the middle east as a result of this war, like we did in Europe and Asia following WWII. A dominant US presence has already shown to be a stabilizing force in both Europe and Asia, and would have been the same in the Middle east.
In this INTERNET age, I think that its no longer necessary for us to have direct military presences, anywhere.
 
wow, you seem to view Islam as no different than Naziism. Sorry to hear that, as its illogical, bigoted, & ignorant.
There is a problem with extremeism..without this, its possible for a Muslim nation to have their own brand of democracy....and it would be similar to ours of 200 years ago...
 
We didn't kill anywhere near what he did, on a per year or per decade basis. They got NOTHING for all the millions of murders under Saddam. At least they got something for this - freedom.

Wonder why half the country was shooting back...
 
There is a problem with extremeism..without this, its possible for a Muslim nation to have their own brand of democracy....and it would be similar to ours of 200 years ago...

Turkey is a democracy. And they are a mostly Muslim nation.
 
Wonder why half the country was shooting back...

De-baathification. Possibly the single WORST idea in the aftermath of a war in recent history. A lot of people belonged to the Baath party because that was how you got ahead in Saddam's Iraq. It's like working at a major corporation here. If you kiss enough ass and tell the CEO how great his ideas are you'll go somewhere, even if you think he's a doofus when he's not looking.

Then the Americans came in and said "anyone who was in the Baath party is out," which was anyone who had gotten anywhere in the past 30 years.
 
In this INTERNET age, I think that its no longer necessary for us to have direct military presences, anywhere.

Are you going to stabilize a region with strongly worded emails?
 
Why are you denegrating their service? What's next? Pissing on their graves?

Step away from the pipe.

You do realize you are talking to a veteran, right? If anybody is denegrating our troops it's those, such as yourself, who support sending them willy-nilly, half way around the world, to be put in harms away, taken from their families, and subjected to danger for reasons that are not worthy of their sacrifices. All so you and your proud crowd can feel like king of the hill and the world's hall monitor so you can play Rush Limbaugh and wave your flag.

You have a lot of ****ing nerve addressing a veteran like that. How long did YOU serve the military? What have YOU done to serve our nation? If the answer is "not a damn thing" then you need to shut your mouth as you are a parasite riding on your freedom like a deadbeat on welfare. You could use a lot less nerve and more smarts, IMO.
 
Wonder why half the country was shooting back...

Not. Where do you get your history?

Step away from the pipe.

You do realize you are talking to a veteran, right? If anybody is denegrating our troops it's those, such as yourself, who support sending them willy-nilly, half way around the world, to be put in harms away, taken from their families, and subjected to danger for reasons that are not worthy of their sacrifices. All so you and your proud crowd can feel like king of the hill and the world's hall monitor so you can play Rush Limbaugh and wave your flag.

You have a lot of ****ing nerve addressing a veteran like that. How long did YOU serve the military? What have YOU done to serve our nation? If the answer is "not a damn thing" then you need to shut your mouth as you are a parasite riding on your freedom like a deadbeat on welfare. You could use a lot less nerve and more smarts, IMO.

I think apdst has a CIB, from Iraq? I was a para, I've got my national defense ribbon (Gulf 1). I support liberation, even at terrible costs. We cannot allow people to live under unthinkable tyranny. World freedom before world peace; it's time we get it done.
 
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Step away from the pipe.

You do realize you are talking to a veteran, right? If anybody is denegrating our troops it's those, such as yourself, who support sending them willy-nilly, half way around the world, to be put in harms away, taken from their families, and subjected to danger for reasons that are not worthy of their sacrifices. All so you and your proud crowd can feel like king of the hill and the world's hall monitor so you can play Rush Limbaugh and wave your flag.

You have a lot of ****ing nerve addressing a veteran like that. How long did YOU serve the military? What have YOU done to serve our nation? If the answer is "not a damn thing" then you need to shut your mouth as you are a parasite riding on your freedom like a deadbeat on welfare. You could use a lot less nerve and more smarts, IMO.

Promoting democracy and defending America's interests is worth that sacrifice. And, yes, I am a veteran, too.
 
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