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Was the War in Iraq worth it?

Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 19.6%
  • No

    Votes: 86 80.4%

  • Total voters
    107
Once upon a time ..

.. The deal was pretty simple: China would get the light sweet crude its military needed to go with the steel they already had, Russia would get cheap Chinese-made goods, and Iraq would get a ton of Russian weapons, which included one or two of those missing warheads that would somehow be found in a boxcar clandestinely misplaced in the Ukraine.

But Saddam had two problems: 1) he didn't really have sufficient spare crude to make the deal worthwhile to the Chinese, and 2) he wasn't allowed to add new trading partners to his customer list, a sanction of many from his Gulf War debacle.

Problem 2, however, was about to expire, sometime around 2003, I believe it was, and Saddam had been a pretty good boy, as evil dictators go, so it didn't appear the U.N. would renew this particular sanction.

Now Saddam had wanted to make this deal earlier, as he really needed to beef up defenses on his eastern border with Iran .. but his regrettable foray into Kuwait to get the additional crude he needed, well, that didn't go so well for him.

So he bided his time, meanwhile working on putting together the deal, which would eventually have included a pipeline directly to China to save shipping costs, and the three partners worked on the plan.

However, when you get three partners like these together it's all very challenging, to say the least, and they soon realized the need for a moderating broker to administrate the details. So who had the most background dealing in such matters requiring the utmost in negotiating skill, not to mention keep their mouths shut, betray their western allies, all in exchange for a goodly supply of crude themselves? Why yes .. the French.

Well, after 9/11, we went on a bin Laden hunt and were pretty much occupied in Afghanistan hounding the Arabian fox .. when someone in the espionage business got wind of the big oil deal set to go down in 2003 .. and once the news of it reached the White House, well, the big question GWB had was where is Saddam gonna get all the oil he needs for a deal like th ...

Once we realized -- and I mean GWB and the Senate Security Commission realized -- that Saddam was gonna solve problem 1 by severely reducing western customer crude deliveries to obtain the crude he needed for the China deal, we went ballistic. It was understandable that we got pissed at Saddam for what he had planned. After all, at the time over 19% of the foreign crude refined in California alone was light sweet Iraqi crude, and with all the Iraqi crude we were getting, and with all the other world sources of the needed light sweet crude completely tapped, this just wasn't going to be acceptable.

So we told Saddam that this was unacceptable.

And he said that once the sanctions expire to allow him to choose new trading partners, he could do whatever he wanted.

And then in the fall of 2002 we clearly warned him that he better not.

And in the early winter of 2002 Saddam said tough luck to us.

And we replied that we'd stop him.

And he said something to the effect of over my dead body.

And the rest is history.

Did we invade to do some "nation forming" and install democracy? Of course that wasn't the reason we invaded. I mean, could you be anymore simple?!

Were there true weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear weapons or biological weapons (mustard gas residue left over from the war with Iran is chemical and obviously doesn't count) -- in Iraq at the time? No. Don't be ridiculous.

Were there terrorist training camps in Iraq at the time? You gotta be kidding -- Saddam would never have allowed "the competition" so close.

Did we invade to give jobs to Halliburton and other Bush oil cronies? No way -- how cynically wrong can you be!

Did we invade so GWB could get revenge against Saddam for what he did to Daddy Bush? Oh yeah, right, like the Senate Security Commission would have allowed that.

But invade we did.

And hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children died.

And we lost thousands, not to mention tens of thousands seriously maimed.

And Saddam, well, he got his dare handed to him.

And GWB got to stand on an aircraft carrier and announce we won the war .. though I guess he was a bit premature.

And the big three-way deal between Iraq, China and Russia was squelched.

And the French almost got their fries renamed.

So .. was it globally worth it, the war with Iraq?

I was opposed to the war from the get-go. But the clandestine warhead thing .. that still haunts me a bit.

Now? Well, I'm not sure we'll ever know if it was worth it or not. Until we can access one of those parallel universes and take a look-see at what might have been had Saddam launched one of those Ukrainian nukes on Israel, I doubt we can really say if the war was worth it or not.

Hell, as far as we know, a man who can't even pronounce "nuclear" may have spared us a global war of the kind.

But hey, Iraq is more unstable now than when Saddam ruled with an iron fist, and these theocratic regions just aren't ready for the kind of separate church and state democracy like we've installed for them.

Why in no time at all, some new Saddam could take over and, what with China still needing that oil, and Russia still packing those weapons, compelete with "missing" nukes .. we might still get a shot at one of those alternate universes in the not too distant future.

Hopefully when that happens, we'll have better technology with more precise targeting and effective headhunting.

That way instead of so much horrific slaughter of little nine year-olds, we can have a nine year-old drone operator play a video game against "Saddam".

Don't you just love progress? ..

.. And a good story?!

The End.
 
Hell no. Not even a little bit.

The only two options in this poll should have been "no" and "hell no"...

Hopefully the 5 that said toppling Hussein was worth the $1T direct outlay and $3T indirect outlay are not otherwise trying to argue that budget deficits are a major problem, as they have gone on record with this vote in saying the US has plenty of money for wild adventures.
 
Of course it was. Iraq's government progessed 100 years in 10. Anyone with any 'progressive' in them must admit that. It went from a genocidal dictatorship to some semblence of democracy. Women's rights have progressed drastically, FGM and Honor Killings are no longer State sanctioned (legal). Censorship has been lessened from unimaginable degrees, it is now ok to criticize the government. The country is no longer in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs, and is instead working with the international community towards the development of useful infrastructure. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs are no longer suffering genocide.

I mean, really... how could removing a backward genocidal dictatorship and replacing it with the beginnings of democracy not be worth it? Just ask the Kurds or Marsh Arabs if it was worth it.

Iraq is now poised to develop like an Asian Tiger, instead of becoming another North Korea. We shined a light into the heart of darkness.
 
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Of course it was. Iraq's government progessed 100 years in 10. Anyone with any 'progressive' in them must admit that. It went from a genocidal dictatorship to some semblence of democracy. Women's rights have progressed drastically, FGM and Honor Killings are no longer State sanctioned (legal). Censorship has been lessened from unimaginable degrees, it is now ok to criticize the government. The country is no longer in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs, and is instead working with the international community towards the development of useful infrastructure. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs are no longer suffering genocide.

I mean, really... how could removing a backward genocidal dictatorship and replacing it with the beginnings of democracy not be worth it? Just ask the Kurds or Marsh Arabs if it was worth it.

Iraq is now poised to develop like an Asian Tiger, instead of becoming another North Korea. We shined a light into the heart of darkness.

Im sure the million dead Iraqis are thumbs-upping in their graves in thanks for the 'surprise' liberation. Our intents were completely good we only had to lie to get there to save them from themselves. A completely just and heartful romp into the heart of the middle east all for charity that has bankrupted the nation and it's political capital as part of an endless war on terrorism for the good of us being able to drive cheaply.

Totally worth it.
 
for the good of us being able to drive cheaply.

Yeah, cheap gas is great, ain't it. I mean, since invading it has dropped drastically in price... wait, the opposite happened. Where is your evidence? Of course, you don't have any evidence. You just love last decade's talking points.

Heck, we didn't even get the contracts for drilling and refining... China and Europe did.


million dead Iraqis are thumbs-upping in their graves in thanks

Are you referring to the million killed in genocide, in torture camps or in Saddam's wars against his neighbors? Stop acting like no one was being murdered and suffering genocide before the invasion. Fact is, Saddam killed that many on a regular basis. The deaths per year of Iraqis has dropped significantly since Saddam's genocidal reign. We didn't kill anywhere near what he did, on a per year or per decade basis. They got NOTHING for all the millions of murders under Saddam. At least they got something for this - freedom.
 
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The change in the Middle East over the last 9 years has been dramatic. We'll see if it continues. We won't know the real impact of our involvement for another 20-50 years. I'm sure that someone other than Bush2 will get all the credit when credit is due. I hope everyone remembers how much of this he took on himself - good or bad. Obama was quick to take some credit recently - more will jump on the bandwagon as time goes on. Of course, in addition to Bush2, the October 11, 2002 resolution that authorized President Bush to use force in Iraq passed the Senate (Democrat Majority held Senate) by a vote of 77 to 23, and the House by 296 to 133 (82 democrats in favor) - have you tried getting that kind of support for anything recently? According to GlobalSecurity.org, there non-U.S. militaries in Iraq have ranged from 21 other countries to as many as 34 including Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Thailand, the United Kingdom, and the Ukraine.
 
IMO, so much more could have been accomplished by our nation ,and its leaders simply learning to respect others. This takes time, too much time???, but does not involve the killing of so many human beings. And, of course, the cost is far more inexpensive.
 
Yes, respecting genocidal dictators should be our first priority.

You mean in rebuilding? Instead of figuring it could be much better, how about we consider it could be much worse. It's not like this has been done before. Next time (Iran) will be better.
 
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Of course it was. Iraq's government progessed 100 years in 10. Anyone with any 'progressive' in them must admit that. It went from a genocidal dictatorship to some semblence of democracy. Women's rights have progressed drastically, FGM and Honor Killings are no longer State sanctioned (legal). Censorship has been lessened from unimaginable degrees, it is now ok to criticize the government. The country is no longer in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs, and is instead working with the international community towards the development of useful infrastructure. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs are no longer suffering genocide.
Agree....but at such a cost....human lives to take the place of "time"???

I mean, really... how could removing a backward genocidal dictatorship and replacing it with the beginnings of democracy not be worth it? Just ask the Kurds or Marsh Arabs if it was worth it.

Iraq is now poised to develop like an Asian Tiger, instead of becoming another North Korea. We shined a light into the heart of darkness.
Agree....but at such a cost....human lives to take the place of "time"???
 
Agree....but at such a cost....human lives to take the place of "time"???

It was not merely "time" to Iraqis. They had suffered horribly over two decades, from aggressive human-wave warfare against Iran, to TWO major episodes of genocide (one via chemical weapons), to oppression and tyranny we can hardly comprehend. SEVENTEEN Chapter 7 UNSCRs. 250k Kurds, 50k Marsh Arabs, 400k children (selling oil-for-food proceeds).

Enough was enough.
 
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Of course it was. Iraq's government progessed 100 years in 10. Anyone with any 'progressive' in them must admit that. It went from a genocidal dictatorship to some semblence of democracy. Women's rights have progressed drastically, FGM and Honor Killings are no longer State sanctioned (legal). Censorship has been lessened from unimaginable degrees, it is now ok to criticize the government. The country is no longer in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs, and is instead working with the international community towards the development of useful infrastructure. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs are no longer suffering genocide.

I mean, really... how could removing a backward genocidal dictatorship and replacing it with the beginnings of democracy not be worth it? Just ask the Kurds or Marsh Arabs if it was worth it.

Iraq is now poised to develop like an Asian Tiger, instead of becoming another North Korea. We shined a light into the heart of darkness.

by this "logic" we should next invade north korea and free that people from their forced starvation
 
Of course it was. Iraq's government progessed 100 years in 10. Anyone with any 'progressive' in them must admit that. It went from a genocidal dictatorship to some semblence of democracy. Women's rights have progressed drastically, FGM and Honor Killings are no longer State sanctioned (legal). Censorship has been lessened from unimaginable degrees, it is now ok to criticize the government. The country is no longer in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs, and is instead working with the international community towards the development of useful infrastructure. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs are no longer suffering genocide.

I mean, really... how could removing a backward genocidal dictatorship and replacing it with the beginnings of democracy not be worth it? Just ask the Kurds or Marsh Arabs if it was worth it.

Iraq is now poised to develop like an Asian Tiger, instead of becoming another North Korea. We shined a light into the heart of darkness.

Deeply impacted, no doubt. Women's rights disappear under Sharia law. We taught them how to torture. Abu Ghraib, anyone. That was where the Commander in Chief allowed his underlings to take the blame for standard policy. He didn't have the courage to admit that the toture was his policy. Over 100,000 dead Iraquis. We killed those, not Saddam. The OIL is in the pipeline now and not being sold in Euros, which destabilized the dollar, and the profits flow to Exxon/Mobil, BP, Total, Haliburton, KBR, Bechtel, Z, and all the good ol' boys who were and are the "Contractors." War for OIL and Profit. Ain't it the American Way or is the same thing in Libya as different as day from day. The managers of "perception" reside deeply in you cerebellum and you should get that fixed, now that you might be aware it is broken.
 
Invited? The South was our puppet. Like I said... the slave or puppet doesn't "invite" the Master of Puppets anywhere. Que Lars and Metallica! DUN DUN DUN!

You're opening a far bigger discussion about the worldwide struggle against communism and the associated paranoia. Regardless of the relationship with South Korea/Vietnam...they were our allies and they requested assistance.

And we are getting off the point here. I don't care about it being an invasion. That is not the point. Don't let him fool you. My point was that would another nation be justified in attacking us and kicking us out of any country that we were in with our military? Would Russia or China be justified as we think that we were in going to Iraq and attacking us in order to kick us out as we did to Iraq when they were in Kuwait. THAT is the point and not this apstd filled semantical tangent where he just won't answer the ****ing question.

The answer is yes. If they felt we were conducting an unjustified act, they surely had the right. The reality is that not to many people were Saddam's fans regardless of the few that benefited from his empowerment. Even they knew he was a scourge. An even greater truth is that there are not too many countries willing to risk open engagement with the US over any issue, no matter how "right" they think it is.

Besides, America's government's first responsibility is to protect America's interests. No matter how unsavory the idea of "fighting for oil" is...oil is a fundamental resource in the American economy, and loosing it would could grievous harm to the country. Sure, our dependance on it is mostly our own fault, but it doesn't change the fact that we are dependent on it. Beyond this, America is moving towards supporting the spread of Democracy, and that's not a bad thing. History shows that Democratic governments rarely engage each other in warfare. Promoting the spread of Democracy is necessary in the spread of world peace.


To me, the biggest disappointment is that we have not established a permanent presence in Iraq and the middle east as a result of this war, like we did in Europe and Asia following WWII. A dominant US presence has allready shown to be a stabilizing force in both Europe and Asia, and would have been the same in the Middle east.
 
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Does anyone know if Iran has sent us a thank you card for taking out their enemy? Now their more extremist version of Islam gets to flourish in the region thanks to us. I'm sure that makes us safer. And the goal was to make the world safer for Americans. I'm sure glad it's "mission accomplished."
 
Worth what?

What did WE get out of the deal?

Let me know and then I will vote in your poll.

Cost a few thousands lives, helped increase the debt, helped al Qaeda recruit, took attention away from Afghanistan, helped to enbolden Iranian radicals, and took at least 100,000 Iraqi lives. Seems like a win to me. :roll:

:coffeepap
 
Do you believe that America should always stay on the sidelines of a genocide?

No. But the Iraq War wasn't about halting geocide now in and of itself now, was it? However, if it had been such and there was a global effort from around the world to stop Saddam from committing genocide, ala, Adolff Hitler killing the Jews, I would have been all for it! But it wasn't.

The primary reason GWB went into Iraq wasn't to stop genocide; it was to stop Saddam from partnering with potential terrorist who likely would use weapons of mass destruction against America. Halting genocide was a "sweetner"...a reason to convince people here and abroad that his cause for invading Iraq was just. It wasn't.
 
Should we have worried about what Hitler did to his own people?

Let's get this straight before the "genocide excuse" goes viral.

Stopping Hitler from killing the Jews was a global initiative, but it didn't start out as such. We "stumbled" upon learning that the killings were true. Sure, there were lots of Jews who escaped the iron fist of Hilter's rein by migrating to America who informed our government of what was happening, but the world didn't know the truth about the slaughter until well into WWII. And even then it wasn't just an American effort to halt it. It was a multi-national effort. That's the different as I see the comparion between stopping Hitler and stopping Saddam from committing genocide against his people.

Since the days of WWII, the U.N. has acted as the global venue for nations to speak out again those isolationist nations who are believed to be committing genocide. America may have spoke before the U.N. against what Saddam was doing, but garnering multi-national support against it was hardly their primary justification for invading Iraq.
 
Do you believe that America should always stay on the sidelines of a genocide?

What inn the hell are you talking about? We did stay on the sideline during the genocide. Stood perfectly still and watched it. Waited until it long ended, after the country had suffered through all the worse, and then, and only then, brough war to add injury to injury. That is why human rights grouops, groups who begged us to interfer when the genocide was happening, opposed us when we went in in 2003. We just made sure even more people were killed.
 
Saddam taking control of 20% of the worlds oil reserves would have been a crippling blow to America's economy, and would have crippled America's ability to defend itself. Saddam invaded Kuwait because they refused to slow oil production and drive the price of oil up. Saddam needed high oil prices to pay of it's war debt. (Iran-Iraq war). Whether or not you know any Kuwaitis has nothing to do with the very real impact to your life that Saddam's successful acquisition of Kuwait would have caused. Never mind the idea that unprovoked aggression against another sovereign nation is generally considered taboo in the civilized world.

But pushing Saddam's army out of Kuwait isn't at question here. The Kuwaiti government asked for our help - specially, their King asked for President Bush's help directly. So, comparing the liberation of Kuwait to the Iraqi invasion by "W" are two completely different things.
 
Only if we were unwilling to adapt. We have HUGE oil reserves. Canada has HUGE oil reserves. We have the biggest natural gas reserves in the world and could easily adapt and leave the whole M.E. to the barbaric 7th century ways... laughing all the way as they fell back into the dark ages. But nope, we made things far far worse by invading. I guess time will tell. In 25 years I might recant here at this very site... I bet you are anxious to wait and see, eh? ;)

It's not as easy as that. The U.S. dollar is the world's reserve currency. It's value was being manipulated by OPEC nations who own their nation's oil fields. As such, they began to use their own currency to sell oil (taking the lead from Iran). This was having an impact on both oil prices and the U.S. dollar. So, even if we had made a major shift from importing OPEC oil to importing Canadian oil or oil from other friendly nations, it still wouldn't have had a significant global shift in the value of our currency overnight. We would need a "bridge" - something to fill the economic void, so to speak - between the wealth earned from foreigners purchasing oil using the U.S. dollar and domestic oil production/oil imports from friendly nations. Mind you, things probably wouldn't have seemed so urgent had our economy not tanked. (You can only "create" so much wealth using financial services as the lynch-pin of your nation's economic policy before the bottom starts to fall out.) But economic policy under GWB didn't change fast enough. So, what is that "bridge" you may ask? I'll give you a 3-word clue: "Made in America".
 
My perspective is, if you're going to fight a dumb war, at least plan for it carefully. Rumsfeld and his boys couldn't do even that. Shinseki says "On the order of hundreds of thousands of troops" and gets politically castrated criticized as being a Clinton general because he doesn't get on the "maneuver warfare, only need four or five divisions, I'ma just salute smartly and about-face and not question your dumb plan" bandwagon.
 
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