View Poll Results: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

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    109 52.66%
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    98 47.34%
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Thread: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  1. #571
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    That is the standard reply of the ignorant and uninformed. I don't think you have plagiarized anyone, but originality is not your forte. The burden of proof is upon you, not justabubba. You can say black is white and inside is outside and truth is fiction and it only identifies you as a Republican. Go for it! Right cheek, left cheek, repeat as necessary.
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  2. #572
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, it's still there authorizing us to use military force to remove the Iraqi military from Kuwait in 1990... Not authorizing anybody that wants to to invade Iraq whenever they want for the rest of time.
    It's still there, and that's not exactly what it says, is it?
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's still there, and that's not exactly what it says, is it?
    Not sure what you mean by "its still there". Security Council resolutions are all still there forever. That doesn't mean they apply outside of the scope they are about.

    Sec. Council Res. 678 authorizes members to take measures to enforce Sec. Council 660. 660 says:

    Resolution 660 (1990) Adopted by the Security Council at its 2932nd meeting, on 2 August 1990

    The Security Council,

    Alarmed by the invasion of Kuwait on 2 August 1990 by the military forces of Iraq,

    Determining that there exists a breach of international peace and security as regards the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait,

    Acting under Articles 39 and 40 of the Charter of the United Nations,

    1. Condemns the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait;

    2. Demands that Iraq withdraw immediately and unconditionally all its forces to the positions in which they were located on 1 August 1990;

    3. Calls upon Iraq and Kuwait to begin immediately intensive negotiations for the resolution of their differences and supports all efforts in this regard, and especially those of the League of Arab States;

    4. Decides to meet again as necessary to consider further steps to ensure compliance with the present resolution.
    So, yeah, it's explicitly and only about the invasion of Kuwait.

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Not so. US interest and US law, by US statute, take precedence over treaties.
    Not the point of our debate. You're moving the goal posts. But, there is no US statue that says we are allowed to eb aggressors.

    Required, no, authorized, yes.
    Not really. Congress merely failed to do their job. they did not declare war. nor did they say "we the congress demand an invasion." They said we'll let the president decide. Some said, as long as he does it within the UN. Read Kerry speech in full for example.



    You don't have to "buy it". The people in charge did. Guess you should have been running the show.
    No they didn't. They looked for an excuse. That entire slam dunk comment was later explained as something we'd buy as an excuse. You'd be hard pressed to show anyone believed saddam was the knid of threat requring invasion. And it is easy to prve he was not an iminent threat, something no one claimed.

    We broke our agreement? Even if so, that doesn't make anything illegal. Technically, if you break a treaty agreement, then it no longer applies anyway.
    Law is largely based on agreements, things written down and codified. But, you seem willing to concede the poitn I have been making. We broke our agreement. If you were a country seeking an agreement with a country you couoldn;t trust to keep their word, do you think it wouold matter?

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not the point of our debate. You're moving the goal posts. But, there is no US statue that says we are allowed to eb aggressors.
    I'm not moving the goal posts, the debate is whether it was legal or illegal. It wasn't illegal by US law, and whether or not it was illegal by international law is debatable. Part of the debate is to what extent international law governs our actions.

    Not really. Congress merely failed to do their job. they did not declare war. nor did they say "we the congress demand an invasion." They said we'll let the president decide. Some said, as long as he does it within the UN. Read Kerry speech in full for example.
    The President can only engage in military action for 90 days without congressional approval. Congress authorized the use of military force in Iraq, authorized that use in excess of 90 days, and did not cease that use of military force.

    No they didn't. They looked for an excuse. That entire slam dunk comment was later explained as something we'd buy as an excuse. You'd be hard pressed to show anyone believed saddam was the knid of threat requring invasion. And it is easy to prve he was not an iminent threat, something no one claimed.
    They may have looked for an excuse. Regardless, the excuse has to be plausible, and at the time, it was.

    Law is largely based on agreements, things written down and codified. But, you seem willing to concede the poitn I have been making. We broke our agreement. If you were a country seeking an agreement with a country you couoldn;t trust to keep their word, do you think it wouold matter?
    Ultimately, we may have broken our agreement with the UN under some interpretations. I don't believe it was the intention to break our agreements with the UN, though.
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    They may have looked for an excuse. Regardless, the excuse has to be plausible, and at the time, it was.
    I'll tell you why the US was looking for any excuse to invade Iraq because they switched to selling their oil in euros in 2000 and were encouraging other nations to do the same, which would devalue the dollar and possibly lose its reserve currency status. Bush had plans to invade Iraq one way or the other eventually, especially when it came to affecting oil money.

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I'm not moving the goal posts, the debate is whether it was legal or illegal. It wasn't illegal by US law, and whether or not it was illegal by international law is debatable. Part of the debate is to what extent international law governs our actions.
    One point at a time. You said they did not break there argeement.

    The President can only engage in military action for 90 days without congressional approval. Congress authorized the use of military force in Iraq, authorized that use in excess of 90 days, and did not cease that use of military force.
    I noted they passed the buck. They did not, however, declare war or say invade Iraq.



    They may have looked for an excuse. Regardless, the excuse has to be plausible, and at the time, it was.
    Having those who willingly suspend disbleif is nto equal to being plausible. There was no evidence, intel or reason to believe Saddam was growing and gathering.



    Ultimately, we may have broken our agreement with the UN under some interpretations. I don't believe it was the intention to break our agreements with the UN, though.
    Intentions? Like I keep pointing out, by definition, a coalition of the willing is outside the UN. So, we had to know we were stepping outside the UN, and to do so means there had to be an intent to do so. Bush was hell bent to invade, and there is no reasonable way to believe Saddam met any reasonable definition of threat that would warrant such a high cost.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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