View Poll Results: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

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  • Yes

    109 52.66%
  • No

    98 47.34%
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Thread: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  1. #551
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I've been addressing the point, and you've been ignoring it. The point is, you can call it illegal all you want, but you can't prove it.
    OK, let me say this clearly:

    1) We signed the UN charter. I think this is a fact, right?

    2) It spells out when a charter nation can invade. This requires either an imminent threat or within the UN through the security council. Again, I think this is factually true.

    3) There was no imminent threat. Even Bush agrees with that.

    4) While I have addressed 1441 above, it became moot the second the US stepped outside the UN and went with the coalition of the willing. From that moment on, we are not opperating under UN resolutions.

    So, what part of the agreement do you think we were under? Remember, the point here was our agreed upon standard that the US signed the agreement.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #552
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Actually the application of that reasoning was Saddam's positioning of troops near the Kuwaiti border in 2001-2002, not an invasion 14 years prior.
    Uhhh.... that would be a no. That rationale was used for existing United Nations Security Council resolutions based on Iraq's 1990 invasion.

    UK attorney general Lord Goldsmith agreed that the use of force against Iraq was justified by resolution 1441, in combination with the earlier resolutions 678 and 687 from 1990.

    According to an independent commission of inquiry set up by the government of the Netherlands, UN resolution 1441 "cannot reasonably be interpreted as authorizing individual member states to use military force to compel Iraq to comply with the Security Council's resolutions." The commission of inquiry of the government of the Netherlands found that the UN resolution of the 1990s provided no authority for the invasion.

    The United States structured its reports to the United Nations Security Council around intelligence from the CIA and MI6 stating that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.

    So Britain and the US decided that it was legal to invade, attack and institute a regime change based on kaka intel and no real threat? I don't get it.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  3. #553
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    OK, let me say this clearly:

    1) We signed the UN charter. I think this is a fact, right?

    2) It spells out when a charter nation can invade. This requires either an imminent threat or within the UN through the security council. Again, I think this is factually true.

    3) There was no imminent threat. Even Bush agrees with that.

    4) While I have addressed 1441 above, it became moot the second the US stepped outside the UN and went with the coalition of the willing. From that moment on, we are not opperating under UN resolutions.

    So, what part of the agreement do you think we were under? Remember, the point here was our agreed upon standard that the US signed the agreement.
    1) It can be argued that we can take actions against non-UN countires without UN approval.

    2) US laws overrides treaties, as far as the US is concerned. US law supported the invasion of Iraq.

    3) There was believed to be a threat at the time of the invasion. Hindsight doesn't change that.

    4) Then we are not bound by them.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  4. #554
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Uhhh.... that would be a no. That rationale was used for existing United Nations Security Council resolutions based on Iraq's 1990 invasion.

    UK attorney general Lord Goldsmith agreed that the use of force against Iraq was justified by resolution 1441, in combination with the earlier resolutions 678 and 687 from 1990.

    According to an independent commission of inquiry set up by the government of the Netherlands, UN resolution 1441 "cannot reasonably be interpreted as authorizing individual member states to use military force to compel Iraq to comply with the Security Council's resolutions." The commission of inquiry of the government of the Netherlands found that the UN resolution of the 1990s provided no authority for the invasion.

    The United States structured its reports to the United Nations Security Council around intelligence from the CIA and MI6 stating that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.

    So Britain and the US decided that it was legal to invade, attack and institute a regime change based on kaka intel and no real threat? I don't get it.
    Faulty Intel isn't faulty Intel until proven faulty, and yes, Saddam had deployed large numbers of troops to the vicinity of Kuwait before the 2003 invasion.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Faulty Intel isn't faulty Intel until proven faulty, and yes, Saddam had deployed large numbers of troops to the vicinity of Kuwait before the 2003 invasion.
    the dicknbush administration realized that joe wilson was undermining its lies that WMDs were being manufactured in iraq. they even outed wilson's wife, a covert CIA agent, to quash his efforts to shed light on their dark deceptions
    in short, the white house knew the propaganda about iraqi WMDs was fabricated because they fabricated them
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #556
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    1) It can be argued that we can take actions against non-UN countires without UN approval.

    2) US laws overrides treaties, as far as the US is concerned. US law supported the invasion of Iraq.

    3) There was believed to be a threat at the time of the invasion. Hindsight doesn't change that.

    4) Then we are not bound by them.
    Rubbish! I'd get that looked at if I were you. It is not legal in the USA to kill people indiscriminately and I submit over a 100,000 dead Iraqis for your sniff test. Iran was never a threat and that was proven. The invasion of Iraq was as legal as the invasion of Libya. Two wars under false pretenses. Left cheek, then right cheek, repeat until its out. Careful, they're comin' fer ya' and gonna fill your brain cavity with "hate them Iranians," "bad Iranians," "Iranians got WMDs," "kill 'em all," and you gonna sit up and beg like a well trained puppy.

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Faulty Intel isn't faulty Intel until proven faulty,
    What about Scott Ritter U.N. weapons inspector who said,

    "We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. As of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance."

    Rafid Ahmed Alwan, known by the Central Intelligence Agency cryptonym "Curveball", is an Iraqi informant. Despite warnings from the German Federal Intelligence Service questioning the authenticity of the claims, the US Government utilized them to build a rationale for military action in the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, including in the 2003 State of the Union address, where President Bush said "we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs", and Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council, which contained a computer generated image of a mobile biological weapons laboratory.

    The Bush administration laid blame on the CIA, criticizing its officials for "failing to investigate" doubts about Curveball, which emerged after an October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate.
    Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA's European division, told the Los Angeles Times that "everyone in the chain of command knew exactly what was happening."


    Faulty, Faulty, Faulty.......
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #558
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    1) It can be argued that we can take actions against non-UN countires without UN approval.

    2) US laws overrides treaties, as far as the US is concerned. US law supported the invasion of Iraq.

    3) There was believed to be a threat at the time of the invasion. Hindsight doesn't change that.

    4) Then we are not bound by them.
    1) interesting take, but no. Law covers our actions as memebers and not something we can excuse because they are non memebers.

    2) Nothing in US law required an invasion, but again not the point. The point is we broke our agreement. You're free to agree that we broke the agreement, but that you think our word means little to nothing.

    3) I don't buy that. Certianly not an imminent threat. Even Bush, as I said, concedes there was no imminent threat and never said there was. So, no, there was never argued there was an inminent threat.

    4) Again, the dispute here is that we broke our agreement. You seem ready to concede that we did.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #559
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the dicknbush administration realized that joe wilson was undermining its lies that WMDs were being manufactured in iraq. they even outed wilson's wife, a covert CIA agent, to quash his efforts to shed light on their dark deceptions
    in short, the white house knew the propaganda about iraqi WMDs was fabricated because they fabricated them
    Nothing like a healthy dose of conspiracy theory to put it all in perspective. Thanks,
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #560
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Nothing like a healthy dose of conspiracy theory to put it all in perspective. Thanks,
    glad you piped up

    now i dare you to show us what part of my post is not true
    the dicknbush administration realized that joe wilson was undermining its lies that WMDs were being manufactured in iraq. they even outed wilson's wife, a covert CIA agent, to quash his efforts to shed light on their dark deceptions
    in short, the white house knew the propaganda about iraqi WMDs was fabricated because they fabricated them
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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