View Poll Results: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

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  • Yes

    109 52.66%
  • No

    98 47.34%
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Thread: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  1. #211
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Let's see ... Iraq has a tremendous crime rate, on a daily base, more than 100 people get murdered. The standard of living is horrid, due to massive crime and corruption. The different ethnic/religious factions are not united, but there are strong tensions which might likely result in civil war, once the US are out. Chances are the Shia majority will lean toward Iran, making Iraq a new strong ally for Iran and possibly start oppressing the Sunnis.

    Although more civilians have died since 2003 in Iraq than during 25 years of Saddam's rule, and although crime is rampant, maybe the new freedom is worth it for the Iraqi people, although even this is questionable (freedom won't fill your belly, and it will not protect you from robbers and extremists murdering you either).

    But even if Iraqis might say it was worth it, was it really worth it for us in the West?

    The mission has cost more than 1.3 trillion $US, IIRC. And the result doesn't look much better, rather worse than what you got in the Arab countries which toppled their governments recently. The standing of the US was severely damaged, and for good reason. And geostrategically, not much was won (see Iran). And we're bitterly missing the money that was burnt on Iraqi sand now (just think what you could do with additional 1.3 trillion these days).

    So no, it was not worth it, IMO.
    I "like" your argument, GermanGuy.
    We will never see that 1.3 trillion again, nor will we see our 4,400 men again.
    The Iraqis may have lost ten times that and I am certain they will remember, much the same as we do.
    But, here is my problem, after WW2, we supposedly had unprecedented propersity...
    This time around, its unprecedented unemployment ???
    BTW, I do not trust our media, so I am guessing about things...

  2. #212
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Imperial? Didn't I just read that we're leaving? Maybe I'm confused.
    In truth, we are not leaving Iraq. Thousands of civilian contractors are in place, possibly permanently. We have never left anyplace on this blue green planet...that I know of..
    Call it "imperial", if you wish, I call it human nature.
    And our military is simply moving to Kuwait and/or other next door nations.....

  3. #213
    global liberation

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I voted no for many reasons, but chief among them is the hubris of thinking we could change a culture from without. That change has to come from within. All we have done is to remove the cork from the bottle, and what comes bubbling out has everything to do with who they are and little to do with their wanting to be like us.
    We changed the bottle.

  4. #214
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Those 75 who state that the Iraq War was "worth it" do not place much value on human life, do they???
    If we had gained something demonstrable, then I'd say 'yes', but I cannot say that we have gained anything like that.

    Really, this begs the question: What did we gain?


    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    In truth, we are not leaving Iraq. Thousands of civilian contractors are in place, possibly permanently. We have never left anyplace on this blue green planet...that I know of..
    Call it "imperial", if you wish, I call it human nature.
    And our military is simply moving to Kuwait and/or other next door nations.....
    Civilian contractors aren't the same question.
    Last edited by radcen; 12-20-11 at 01:06 PM.

  5. #215
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    We changed the bottle.
    and replaced it with what, exactly?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #216
    global liberation

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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and replaced it with what, exactly?
    Not a genocidal dictatorship.

  7. #217
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    385 casualties in the Spanish American war? how did they manage that?
    Short and sweet, the way a war should be....
    But I favor that war should NOT be...for this dream, we need a better people.
    This will come....in time.

  8. #218
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    To all those that profit from a long, nine year war, that we had no business being involved in, in the first place, then it was most certainly worth it. However, if you were one of our soldiers wounded or killed, or that of their loved ones who will forever live out the rest of their lives without their soldier in it, then it definitely was not worth it.

  9. #219
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Someone has GOT to be spamming the Yes choice.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  10. #220
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    justabubba, et al,

    I started out in the business with a tour in Vietnam. Over the last decade, I've spent seven years in the Middle East/Persian Gulf, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen. If there is one constant that I have observed, it is that the policy makers and those in senior leadership positions rarely (almost never) admit to a bad decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and replaced it with what, exactly?
    (PREFACE)

    If you sit and smoke a cigar with them, you will take notice that the staff of these senior leaders are very loyal to their boss and the direction they take in the administration of forces and policy. Whether is be General Sanchez, Casey, Petraeus, Odenero or Austin, I noticed that each staff saw the situation as evolving and completely different from the decision sets expected from the previous CJTF-7/MNF-I/USF-I commander. Every single decision that was made, somehow, was justified, rational, and valid under the circumstances and context for which they were made.

    It boils down to, we did what we did, because that was the best course of action available at the time. And you will never be able to convince them otherwise.

    (COMMENT)

    To the question: What kind of Government did we leave behind? Does it differ from the Government of Saddam Hussein?

    The answer comes with mixed reviews. In the first 72 hours, of rule without US Military in place, we see this:

    In a nationally televised news conference, the vice president, Tariq al-Hashimi, blamed the Shiite-led government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki for using the country’s security forces to persecute political opponents, specifically Sunnis.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/wo...sinations.html

    As compared to this:

    Saddam Hussein "used an extensive secret-police establishment to suppress any internal opposition to his rule, and he made himself the object of an extensive personality cult among the Iraqi public. His goals as president were to supplant Egypt as leader of the Arab world and to achieve hegemony over the Persian Gulf."

    Source: Saddam Hussein Biography - Facts, Birthday, Life Story - Biography.com
    There are some similarities, to be sure. BUT, it it what the US originally envisioned? The US over time and with each successive setback, adjusts it vision to meet the reality. The US never really claims it failed, but that some unforeseen force changed the dynamics. But it you were to set the metric for the performance of the overall strategy and plan that we set in the beginning, then you are able to judge how close today's reality is with the vision originally set.

    Washington, DC, September 1, 2006 - The National Security Archive is today posting State Department documents from 2002 tracing the inception of the "Future of Iraq Project," alongside the final, mammoth 13-volume study, previously obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. "The Future of Iraq Project" was one of the most comprehensive U.S. government planning efforts for raising that country out of the ashes of combat and establishing a functioning democracy. The new materials complement previous postings on the Archive's site relating to the United States' complex relationship with Iraq during the years leading up to the 2003 invasion.

    Source: New State Department Releases on the "Future of Iraq" Project

    It is my view that the US, despite its best efforts, did not have the genius that was necessary to make the vision come true. As a nation, the US no longer has the necessary knowledge, skills and abilities to meet challenges like this; then, now or in the immediate future. Anyone that look at the planning documents can tell that today's Iraq is nothing like the vision our government had in 2002/2003. All good intentions aside, what we may had done is set the time table back to the point when Saddam forced President Bakr to step down under threat of being removed by force, and immediately had several top members of the Ba'ath party arrested and later executed under claim of espionage. In this case - the variant is, al-Maliki has top GOI members arrested on charges of terrorism. We don't know for sure, but it is NOT looking so good so far.

    Most Respectfully,
    R

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