View Poll Results: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

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  • Yes

    109 52.66%
  • No

    98 47.34%
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Thread: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  1. #101
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    by this "logic" we should next invade north korea and free that people from their forced starvation
    Of course we should, if it could be accomplished without him nuking on his way out. He might wanna ride the firey chariot; dude's nuts. Anyway, I've explained this so many times...

    Priorities. We gotta have 'em. We cannot do everything all at once. We should start (as we have) with countries that have both the infrastructure for democratic process and natural resources capable of nation building. For example: though many African countries could use some liberation, there is neither the infrastructure nor natural resources for Asian Tiger style development. So, I hope you can understand that it is impossible to do everything at once and priorities are of utmost importance in a sustained drive for world freedom.

    Iran is literally surrounded and finds itself abandoned even by neighbors. Absolutely no one would come to the aid of the Iranian government. They have been properly isolated geopolitically. They are in violation of numerous UNSCRs. They are struggling with internal control. The time is now. One more step forward in world freedom, before it's too late.

  2. #102
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

    The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

    We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

    Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.

  3. #103
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

    The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

    We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

    Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.
    So what form of government would you have proposed instead, pray tell? I mean, first you say we should set up Western-style institutions and protect religious diversity, then you say that democracy doesn't work. Which is it?

    You say we should have inculcated the Iraqis with Western values, but then say they are not suited for democracy. Which is it? Because in my mind, Western values are democratic values.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 12-17-11 at 11:53 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #104
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Does anyone know if Iran has sent us a thank you card for taking out their enemy? Now their more extremist version of Islam gets to flourish in the region thanks to us. I'm sure that makes us safer. And the goal was to make the world safer for Americans. I'm sure glad it's "mission accomplished."
    The flip side of that was that the US supported Iraq for a very long time due in large part to it's "less extreme" form of islam. Where did that get us and the world?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  5. #105
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    No. But the Iraq War wasn't about halting geocide now in and of itself now, was it? However, if it had been such and there was a global effort from around the world to stop Saddam from committing genocide, ala, Adolff Hitler killing the Jews, I would have been all for it! But it wasn't.

    The primary reason GWB went into Iraq wasn't to stop genocide; it was to stop Saddam from partnering with potential terrorist who likely would use weapons of mass destruction against America. Halting genocide was a "sweetner"...a reason to convince people here and abroad that his cause for invading Iraq was just. It wasn't.
    Regardless, we're talking about a leader of a nation that had committed genocide. We should have done more during, but removing him after was still worthwhile.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  6. #106
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    The 'War with Iraq" was definitely worth it. It was well planned, well executed, over in days and ousted a brutal dictator. Had they properly managed post-war ops and executed a timely withdrawal, we would have been gone by 2008 and the region would be a far more stable place.

  7. #107
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What inn the hell are you talking about? We did stay on the sideline during the genocide. Stood perfectly still and watched it. Waited until it long ended, after the country had suffered through all the worse, and then, and only then, brough war to add injury to injury. That is why human rights grouops, groups who begged us to interfer when the genocide was happening, opposed us when we went in in 2003. We just made sure even more people were killed.
    And that was wrong. I was replying to a "it didn't affect us, why would we care?" comment.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  8. #108
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But pushing Saddam's army out of Kuwait isn't at question here. The Kuwaiti government asked for our help - specially, their King asked for President Bush's help directly. So, comparing the liberation of Kuwait to the Iraqi invasion by "W" are two completely different things.
    I wasn't comparing the two. I was talking about the first, in reply to a statement about the first.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #109
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    The only question of real value is whether the threat posed to U.S. interests by Baghdad could be contained or eliminated without amplifying the greater threat from Tehran. So far the answer appears to be "no".

    The problem with Iraq wasn't the invasion or the reasons for it, but our game-plan once we had control of the field. We should have turned Iraq into a vassal state, setting up a U.S. military-run government under which we provided security for the Iraqi people, establish Western institutions, introduce and protect religious diversity and train both civilian and military personnel in Western administrative techniques and values. The Iraqi people, precisely because they are Muslim, are unsuited for democratic institutions and the instability of the current regime and its susceptibility to becoming another Iranian puppet state are proof enough that we don't understand the fundamental nature of Muslim theology, Arab culture or the unsuitability of either for self-rule as a peaceful member within the community of nations.

    We had an opportunity to build in Iraq a prosperous, peaceful, friendly ally and we blew it. It's only a matter of time before it becomes more obvious. It isn't that the goal was wrong so much that the administration severely underestimated what it would take to get Iraq there. That elections are held, as is demonstrated time and again, is neither proof nor guarantee of the wisdom of the electorate, nor does it usually result in good government.

    Iraq didn't need democracy. It needed a de-Islamification.
    You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations about Islam. What about the rest of the Islamic world that sees successful democracies and Turkey or Indonesia?

    Also you over estimate our ability to turn around into your "ideal" country, the matter of "civilizing" a people isn't that simple nor is it that quick. History is full of examples of one group of people trying to tear apart another group from its history, culture, national identity, in fact its very essence. Set up a puppet government? Sure why not, thats fairly easily, but getting the people to actually follow along with that government is an entirely different matter. There is no way in hell you are going to take even the youngest Soldier, when we are talking about training the military, and remove his life previous to his introduction into the Army and teach him a culture very different from his own.

    Islam is no more opposed to democracy than any other religion, and its not a culture's religion that gives it the ability to be democratic or not its their people, their history, and their culture. Simply because Islam is part of their history, culture, and identity, which is a major hurdle for democracy, does NOT mean Islam is the only problem. For example in the Bible there is no mention of any of the democratic and liberal theories which were created and developed throughout centuries to finally manifest in the types of democracies we see today. Religion is a big part of their lives, like its a big part of ours, but its not the only defining feature of Muslim's existence, just like we don't stone people for adultery even though its in the Bible, so can Muslims ignore some of the more gruesome portions of their holy book if their culture allowed it.

    If Western culture didn't have the same kind of great thinkers that it did, we may be just like the dictatorial countries of the Middle East.

    By the way if you want an idea of how hard it would be to de-Islamify Iraq, think of how hard it would be to de-Christianize you. The only way to de-Islamify Iraq is to depopulate its country.

  10. #110
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    Re: Was the War in Iraq worth it?

    The cost of oil was supposed to go down, if we "liberated" Iraq.

    instead its up. WAY up.

    so, from that perspective, the war was a failure.

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