View Poll Results: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

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  • Yes, it protects her from bearing the rapist's child

    106 92.98%
  • No, that pill is unethical

    8 7.02%
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Thread: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

  1. #521
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Because they are self-contradictory.

    You justify denying a woman the right to control her own body by claiming that killing a beating heart is morally wrong. But then you make exceptions that don't stand up to scrutiny. How can you possibly argue that it is okay to kill a baby (I'm using presumptive language here, I know - sorry if you wouldn't use those terms) in order to prevent men from being falsely accused of rape? The value of a human life clearly exceeds that.

    In short, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either abortion is wrong, or it's not, in which case it is subject to a right of a woman's privacy. Not much middle ground there.
    OK, what?

    Have I not said several times on this thread that I would not deny a woman, at this time, an abortion, up to viability (gives her plenty of time to get one) if it is an elective abortion?

    Doesn't mean I have to approve of women having abortions. Abortion is wrong. Just like I believe adultery is wrong and I believe sleeping around is wrong, doesn't mean that I would make it illegal for people to do so because that is just as wrong and probably would leave to bigger problems. If the world is a different place though, I would not oppose changing laws on these things. As it is right now, I go with what I feel is best for the whole.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  2. #522
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Have I not said several times on this thread that I would not deny a woman, at this time, an abortion, up to viability (gives her plenty of time to get one) if it is an elective abortion?
    Okay, never mind. Sorry, I didn't catch that part. Kind of important.

    It was calling yourself "pro-life" that threw me. You're pro-choice.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  3. #523
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Okay, never mind. Sorry, I didn't catch that part. Kind of important.

    It was calling yourself "pro-life" that threw me. You're pro-choice.
    I'm pro-life, because if I could prevent those abortions, I would. And I don't hold that position because I think women should have complete control over their bodies to make the choice. I hold it because it is what I see as most practical.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I'm pro-life, because if I could prevent those abortions, I would.
    Pro-life, in the sense of the word we all use, means you would use the power of the law to prevent them.

    And I don't hold that position because I think women should have complete control over their bodies to make the choice. I hold it because it is what I see as most practical.
    Then your personal views are self-contradictory, even if your public policy views aren't.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    My mother is a nurse. I'm pretty sure she knows what the morning after pill is. My family is very much for birth control, despite a heavy Catholic background. And they are all smart enough to realize that a person normally doesn't get pregnant until at least a day, if not two or three, after having sex. And they consider life beginning at implantation, not conception.

    If life begins at conception, what about those eggs that get fertilized for invitro and stored? Many of them just go bad. Yet, very few are crying about those "dead babies".
    If I were your family I wouldn't tell my priest how they feel. That zygotes and fetuses die means little. People die at all times of life, that is not our problem, in terms of blame, or excuses us killing the innocent. When else can life begin? When else can a new life form be formed but at conception? This is when it all comes together. At no other point between conception and death does this happen.

    The smart enough comment is ironic, because the academic evidence is equally split on the issue, but one side does suggest this pill can cause abortion, so that comment is silly.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Pro-life, in the sense of the word we all use, means you would use the power of the law to prevent them.



    Then your personal views are self-contradictory, even if your public policy views aren't.
    Maybe mainstream... but people can also be pro-life, as he and I are but realize that stopping a woman from choosing is more harm than good even if we feel horrible about the abortion.
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  7. #527
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    If I were your family I wouldn't tell my priest how they feel. That zygotes and fetuses die means little. People die at all times of life, that is not our problem, in terms of blame, or excuses us killing the innocent. When else can life begin? When else can a new life form be formed but at conception? This is when it all comes together. At no other point between conception and death does this happen.

    The smart enough comment is ironic, because the academic evidence is equally split on the issue, but one side does suggest this pill can cause abortion, so that comment is silly.
    My family doesn't go to church. It is not necessary to belong to a church to practice that religion.

    Second, since the comment had to do with pregnancy, not taking the pill, then you aren't really making much of a point here. If the pill is taken within that 24 hours of having sex, and nothing else is going on with the woman, then she will likely not have conceived at all. However, it is possible that conception may happen if she waits over that 24 hours up to that 3 days. But even the website says that once a person is pregnant, Plan B is not effective at eliminating that pregnancy. That is why a woman should take it within the first 24 hours and has to take it within 3 days for it to do anything.

    Provide your proof. Everything I have seen says that Plan B does not harm an actual pregnancy. Just saying the evidence is divided isn't proof.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #528
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    My family doesn't go to church. It is not necessary to belong to a church to practice that religion.
    I must of missed that in the Pope's most recent sermons.

    Dignitas Personae: On Certain Bioethical Questions

    New forms of interception and contragestation

    '23. Alongside methods of preventing pregnancy which are, properly speaking, contraceptive, that is, which prevent conception following from a sexual act, there are other technical means which act after fertilization, when the embryo is already constituted, either before or after implantation in the uterine wall. Such methods are interceptive if they interfere with the embryo before implantation and contragestative if they cause the elimination of the embryo once implanted.

    In order to promote wider use of interceptive methods,43 it is sometimes stated that the way in which they function is not sufficiently understood. It is true that there is not always complete knowledge of the way that different pharmaceuticals operate, but scientific studies indicate that the effect of inhibiting implantation is certainly present, even if this does not mean that such interceptives cause an abortion every time they are used, also because conception does not occur after every act of sexual intercourse. It must be noted, however, that anyone who seeks to prevent the implantation of an embryo which may possibly have been conceived and who therefore either requests or prescribes such a pharmaceutical, generally intends abortion.

    When there is a delay in menstruation, a contragestative is used,44 usually one or two weeks after the non-occurrence of the monthly period. The stated aim is to re-establish menstruation, but what takes place in reality is the abortion of an embryo which has just implanted.

    As is known, abortion is "the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth".45 Therefore, the use of means of interception and contragestation fall within the sin of abortion and are gravely immoral. Furthermore, when there is certainty that an abortion has resulted, there are serious penalties in canon law.46 '

    Second, since the comment had to do with pregnancy, not taking the pill, then you aren't really making much of a point here. If the pill is taken within that 24 hours of having sex, and nothing else is going on with the woman, then she will likely not have conceived at all. However, it is possible that conception may happen if she waits over that 24 hours up to that 3 days. But even the website says that once a person is pregnant, Plan B is not effective at eliminating that pregnancy. That is why a woman should take it within the first 24 hours and has to take it within 3 days for it to do anything.

    Provide your proof. Everything I have seen says that Plan B does not harm an actual pregnancy. Just saying the evidence is divided isn't proof.
    You are simply wrong. The academic evidence is equally split on whether the morning after pill can cause abortions.

    Emergency contraception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-05-12 at 02:35 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #529
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I must of missed that in the Pope's most recent sermons.

    Dignitas Personae: On Certain Bioethical Questions

    New forms of interception and contragestation

    '23. Alongside methods of preventing pregnancy which are, properly speaking, contraceptive, that is, which prevent conception following from a sexual act, there are other technical means which act after fertilization, when the embryo is already constituted, either before or after implantation in the uterine wall. Such methods are interceptive if they interfere with the embryo before implantation and contragestative if they cause the elimination of the embryo once implanted.

    In order to promote wider use of interceptive methods,43 it is sometimes stated that the way in which they function is not sufficiently understood. It is true that there is not always complete knowledge of the way that different pharmaceuticals operate, but scientific studies indicate that the effect of inhibiting implantation is certainly present, even if this does not mean that such interceptives cause an abortion every time they are used, also because conception does not occur after every act of sexual intercourse. It must be noted, however, that anyone who seeks to prevent the implantation of an embryo which may possibly have been conceived and who therefore either requests or prescribes such a pharmaceutical, generally intends abortion.

    When there is a delay in menstruation, a contragestative is used,44 usually one or two weeks after the non-occurrence of the monthly period. The stated aim is to re-establish menstruation, but what takes place in reality is the abortion of an embryo which has just implanted.

    As is known, abortion is "the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth".45 Therefore, the use of means of interception and contragestation fall within the sin of abortion and are gravely immoral. Furthermore, when there is certainty that an abortion has resulted, there are serious penalties in canon law.46 '
    Since when do you get to decide what people believe, even if some of their beliefs contradict some things of their chosen religion? You have no say on what religion people claim to be, nor can you even really say that they are wrong for saying that they are part of that religion simply because they disagree with one or even two parts of that religion.

    And really, the Pope doesn't get that say either, even if the person is claiming to be Catholic. He may be able to exclude people from participating in certain church activities or rites, but most churches, even Catholic ones, do not check attendees to mass against a master list of can't come to Catholic services. I know. I have never been through catechism, but have been to several Catholic masses throughout the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are simply wrong. The academic evidence is equally split on whether the morning after pill can cause abortions.

    Emergency contraception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    But, there really isn't a "split", as you call it, about what happens here. Most of those who are claiming that there is a chance that the egg could be fertilized, but just not allowed to implant, are extreme prolife groups. The other side basically just conceded that they really don't know whether it would do that or not, since they can't really observe what happens during that couple of days while sperm is making its way to the egg, and the egg is coming back down to implant.

    However, since pregnancy is not official until implantation occurs (probably millions of fertilized eggs are naturally rejected by women's uteri every year), then it is not really an abortion drug, because in order to have a real abortion there must be a real pregnancy.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #530
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Since when do you get to decide what people believe, even if some of their beliefs contradict some things of their chosen religion? You have no say on what religion people claim to be, nor can you even really say that they are wrong for saying that they are part of that religion simply because they disagree with one or even two parts of that religion.

    And really, the Pope doesn't get that say either, even if the person is claiming to be Catholic. He may be able to exclude people from participating in certain church activities or rites, but most churches, even Catholic ones, do not check attendees to mass against a master list of can't come to Catholic services. I know. I have never been through catechism, but have been to several Catholic masses throughout the years.
    I don't think you understand Catholicism. I was only commenting on the Catholic teaching. If you have an abortion you will be dealt with severely by the Roman Catholic Church. It makes little sense to call yourself a Catholic and take positions completely contrary to the Church's belief and ethos.

    But, there really isn't a "split", as you call it, about what happens here. Most of those who are claiming that there is a chance that the egg could be fertilized, but just not allowed to implant, are extreme prolife groups. The other side basically just conceded that they really don't know whether it would do that or not, since they can't really observe what happens during that couple of days while sperm is making its way to the egg, and the egg is coming back down to implant.
    This is simply an inaccurate reading of what the wiki article says. It may be true, but I don't think so. The Catholic Church isn't extreme, or at least not marginal.
    However, since pregnancy is not official until implantation occurs (probably millions of fertilized eggs are naturally rejected by women's uteri every year), then it is not really an abortion drug, because in order to have a real abortion there must be a real pregnancy.
    This is untrue. Not only does it not matter if they die naturally, that is not our concern, but conception is when a new being is formed and the point where the usual pro-life philosophy says life and personhood believe.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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