View Poll Results: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

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  • Yes, it protects her from bearing the rapist's child

    106 92.98%
  • No, that pill is unethical

    8 7.02%
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Thread: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

  1. #511
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    To me, things are legal are not necessarily okay, and things that are illegal are not necessarily bad, but it still could be necessary to maintain them where they are, at least for the current time, to avoid other, much worse problems.
    What could be any worse than killing babies? None of the reasons you've given seem like good enough excuses for killing a baby.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  2. #512
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I heard my son's heart beat at around 2 months. I know that at that point, there is most certainly a child in there. A separate life from my own.

    I have problems killing bugs, so killing a human with a heart beat that can be saved by just waiting a few more months, with very little risk to the person they are relying on, is just deplorable.

    Honestly, I would prefer no abortions at all, besides saving the mother, even before the heart beats, just because the person feels inconvenienced about being pregnant. The heartbeat is basically just where, to me, there is no question about whether or not there is actually a life in there. That is going to be one of the first signs that we, as people, can actually detect of life when it comes to a fetus.

    And, Plan B mostly acts just as a contraceptive. Even if it is causing an abortion, there is no way really for anyone to even know that a pregnancy would have happened.

    In a perfect world we wouldn't need Plan B or abortions ever. Even in a near perfect world, this would be true. But since we don't live in a perfect or near perfect world, then I prioritize what is best for as many people as I can think of and how I feel about the thought of doing something or someone else doing something, especially when it involves harm to another living thing. I try to take into account what good comes from that harm as well.
    You can hear it even before that sometimes, if I'm not mistaken. But it's still not really a developed heart. I'm just making the point that it's distinctly different.

    I guess it depends on how you're looking at it. None of my organs individually make up a life. Since most of the organs either aren't there or aren't hooked up in a ZEF, even when the fetal heart beat starts... I don't really consider that a life. I consider it alive, though, but so is my kidney. It's just not a life.

    Pregnancy can not only be inconvenient (even if you want a child), but dangerous, and it comes with a near-guaranteed cost to your health - physically, psychologically, and also socially and financially. And that's a normal pregnancy, not a dangerous one. I think it's disingenuous to imply that women are so flippant about getting abortions. The cost of pregnancy is serious, and you're downplaying that.

    We aren't really sure how Plan B acts. It is quite likely that it acts in what some consider to be an "abortive" fashion in some cases. Is that ok simply because you'd never know about it? That seems inconsistent to me.

    I'd love to see that perfect world too. Hopefully in my lifetime, but not now.

  3. #513
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    You can hear it even before that sometimes, if I'm not mistaken. But it's still not really a developed heart. I'm just making the point that it's distinctly different.

    I guess it depends on how you're looking at it. None of my organs individually make up a life. Since most of the organs either aren't there or aren't hooked up in a ZEF, even when the fetal heart beat starts... I don't really consider that a life. I consider it alive, though, but so is my kidney. It's just not a life.

    Pregnancy can not only be inconvenient (even if you want a child), but dangerous, and it comes with a near-guaranteed cost to your health - physically, psychologically, and also socially and financially. And that's a normal pregnancy, not a dangerous one. I think it's disingenuous to imply that women are so flippant about getting abortions. The cost of pregnancy is serious, and you're downplaying that.

    We aren't really sure how Plan B acts. It is quite likely that it acts in what some consider to be an "abortive" fashion in some cases. Is that ok simply because you'd never know about it? That seems inconsistent to me.

    I'd love to see that perfect world too. Hopefully in my lifetime, but not now.
    I've been pregnant twice and come from a family full of women who have had many, many children. You will not convince me that being pregnant, for most women, is that dangerous or causes serious issues. Most pregnancies are completely safe and actually provide more benefits to a woman than having an abortion, as far as future health goes.

    As I've said, it's about priorities. The priority for me is to have fewer pregnancies, but not at the expense of children that could have been saved just for the convenience of the mother. If the mother's life is in danger, then it is doubtful that the baby would really be likely to live anyway.

    And there are at least some women who are flippant about getting abortions. There are women who use abortion as birth control instead of actually just practicing preventative birth control. Most women have abortions to avoid the inconvenience of a pregnancy, whether it's because they are unmarried and don't want to raise a child on their own or whether they can't afford the pregnancy/child. There are couples waiting years to adopt babies. Now many do want healthy babies, but I'm pretty sure that most abortions have little to do with the expected health of the baby. In fact, considering people are willing to pay surrogates extra money to have babies, I bet at least some of those women who would plan to get an abortion just for the cost could easily get that extra money from making the arrangement to give their baby to one of those waiting couples.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  4. #514
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    What could be any worse than killing babies? None of the reasons you've given seem like good enough excuses for killing a baby.
    Those babies being born with huge or extremely painful health issues because their mother tried to terminate the pregnancy and failed but caused problems. Men being sent to jail for rape, wrongly, because some woman accused him of it just to get an abortion. And there are more.

    You may not consider them good enough, but from a practical standpoint, comparing abortion to killing a living child or even a viable child, is like comparing killing in self defense to killing for some sick pleasure or killing for justice. All of those things come with different reasons, consequences and issues that need to be addressed and/or taken into consideration.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #515
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I've been pregnant twice and come from a family full of women who have had many, many children. You will not convince me that being pregnant, for most women, is that dangerous or causes serious issues. Most pregnancies are completely safe and actually provide more benefits to a woman than having an abortion, as far as future health goes.

    As I've said, it's about priorities. The priority for me is to have fewer pregnancies, but not at the expense of children that could have been saved just for the convenience of the mother. If the mother's life is in danger, then it is doubtful that the baby would really be likely to live anyway.

    And there are at least some women who are flippant about getting abortions. There are women who use abortion as birth control instead of actually just practicing preventative birth control. Most women have abortions to avoid the inconvenience of a pregnancy, whether it's because they are unmarried and don't want to raise a child on their own or whether they can't afford the pregnancy/child. There are couples waiting years to adopt babies. Now many do want healthy babies, but I'm pretty sure that most abortions have little to do with the expected health of the baby. In fact, considering people are willing to pay surrogates extra money to have babies, I bet at least some of those women who would plan to get an abortion just for the cost could easily get that extra money from making the arrangement to give their baby to one of those waiting couples.
    I have not seen any studies providing real evidence that abortion causes any long-term harm to the woman. And the death and injury rate is significantly lower than it is for giving birth (when I say "significantly," I mean somewhere in the order of ten times less). The later a woman has an abortion the more risky it is, but the time frame in which women are having abortions is moving earlier and earlier. That's a good thing.

    Most pregnancies resulting in birth cause significant changes to the woman's life and body. Even the completely textbook ones. That is something worth considering. And that is quite a cost to pay when you don't want to bring another life into the world.

    I have a hard time buying the argument that you can save something which never expressed any desire to be alive in the first place. What you're actually doing is expressing your own desire to create more life. Nothing else. That's a selfish desire, not an altruistic one. Mind you, selfishness is not always inherently bad. But that's the truth of the matter.

    I'm sure there are. There are people who are flippant about all kinds of things. Doesn't mean it's common enough to apply it as a blanket statement. Who on earth would want to go through an abortion? If nothing else, it's expensive and physically unpleasant. For most women it's also emotionally draining, for a whole host of reasons (including the social flack and isolation they may encounter). Demonizing women who have abortions is just a way of avoiding the reality of the situation.

  6. #516
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those babies being born with huge or extremely painful health issues because their mother tried to terminate the pregnancy and failed but caused problems.
    We should allow perfectly healthy babies to be killed instead?

    Men being sent to jail for rape, wrongly, because some woman accused him of it just to get an abortion.
    We should allow babies to be killled instead?

    You may not consider them good enough, but from a practical standpoint, comparing abortion to killing a living child or even a viable child, is like comparing killing in self defense to killing for some sick pleasure or killing for justice. All of those things come with different reasons, consequences and issues that need to be addressed and/or taken into consideration.
    No, they're not good enough. It's really hard to find any good reason to justify killing a baby. If you think it's that easy, you shouldn't be in this debate - or you should rethink your views on abortion.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  7. #517
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I have not seen any studies providing real evidence that abortion causes any long-term harm to the woman. And the death and injury rate is significantly lower than it is for giving birth (when I say "significantly," I mean somewhere in the order of ten times less). The later a woman has an abortion the more risky it is, but the time frame in which women are having abortions is moving earlier and earlier. That's a good thing.

    Most pregnancies resulting in birth cause significant changes to the woman's life and body. Even the completely textbook ones. That is something worth considering. And that is quite a cost to pay when you don't want to bring another life into the world.

    I have a hard time buying the argument that you can save something which never expressed any desire to be alive in the first place. What you're actually doing is expressing your own desire to create more life. Nothing else. That's a selfish desire, not an altruistic one. Mind you, selfishness is not always inherently bad. But that's the truth of the matter.

    I'm sure there are. There are people who are flippant about all kinds of things. Doesn't mean it's common enough to apply it as a blanket statement. Who on earth would want to go through an abortion? If nothing else, it's expensive and physically unpleasant. For most women it's also emotionally draining, for a whole host of reasons (including the social flack and isolation they may encounter). Demonizing women who have abortions is just a way of avoiding the reality of the situation.
    Giving birth and doing things like breast feeding come with benefits that a woman does not get if she has an abortion, including increased metabolism, increased blood flow, and decreased risk of breast cancer, to name a few. I have given these things before. Not every woman gets these benefits, but most women do get some benefits from having a child. And few women, as a percentage of how many give birth (in the US), experience negative consequences, especially long-lasting ones, from giving birth.

    Who have a demonized? Saying that they are having an abortion because the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the woman is not the same as demonizing women. You are the one equating those two things. Some women find going to work inconvenient to them, just as other women find staying home fully to raise their children inconvenient, and still others find going to school inconvenient to them, especially for particular times in their lives. Saying these things in no way demonizes any particular woman who makes these decisions. However, depending on their reasons for those decisions and how it affects others, especially children they may have or other loved ones, I will judge those women each on a personal basis if I know them or hear about them. Just as I judge women for having abortions depending on their reasons for having them on individual cases and circumstances. Most of the time, I am going to think negatively of a woman who has an abortion just to avoid being inconvenienced by a pregnancy, especially if she was not trying to prevent the pregnancy in other ways. I still could feel sympathy for her situation, but I don't have to agree or approve of her choice, nor do I have to treat every case the same.
    Having an abortion doesn't mean that I will ridicule the woman or even talk about the abortion with her (at least I won't bring it up), but it also doesn't mean that I have to agree or accept her decision and it could affect my relationship with the person. It would be very little different from me disagreeing with someone about how they discipline their children, especially in front of me, or how they treat other people.

    Now, obviously, this is on a personal level. I have already said that abortion should be legal, at least for now, up til viability. Doesn't change how I am going to treat women I know who have an abortion.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  8. #518
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    We should allow perfectly healthy babies to be killed instead?

    We should allow babies to be killled instead?

    No, they're not good enough. It's really hard to find any good reason to justify killing a baby. If you think it's that easy, you shouldn't be in this debate - or you should rethink your views on abortion.
    Why should I have to rethink anything about my views? I'm am perfectly fine with my views on abortion. I see no reason to view issues as black or white. I prefer to look at many aspects of issues and base my opinion on those. I will share my views as I see fit within the rules of this forum. Being involved in this debate does not require that I either stand completely on one side or completely on the other. That is just absurd, since few people agree completely on either side.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #519
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Giving birth and doing things like breast feeding come with benefits that a woman does not get if she has an abortion, including increased metabolism, increased blood flow, and decreased risk of breast cancer, to name a few. I have given these things before. Not every woman gets these benefits, but most women do get some benefits from having a child. And few women, as a percentage of how many give birth (in the US), experience negative consequences, especially long-lasting ones, from giving birth.

    Who have a demonized? Saying that they are having an abortion because the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the woman is not the same as demonizing women. You are the one equating those two things. Some women find going to work inconvenient to them, just as other women find staying home fully to raise their children inconvenient, and still others find going to school inconvenient to them, especially for particular times in their lives. Saying these things in no way demonizes any particular woman who makes these decisions. However, depending on their reasons for those decisions and how it affects others, especially children they may have or other loved ones, I will judge those women each on a personal basis if I know them or hear about them. Just as I judge women for having abortions depending on their reasons for having them on individual cases and circumstances. Most of the time, I am going to think negatively of a woman who has an abortion just to avoid being inconvenienced by a pregnancy, especially if she was not trying to prevent the pregnancy in other ways. I still could feel sympathy for her situation, but I don't have to agree or approve of her choice, nor do I have to treat every case the same.
    Having an abortion doesn't mean that I will ridicule the woman or even talk about the abortion with her (at least I won't bring it up), but it also doesn't mean that I have to agree or accept her decision and it could affect my relationship with the person. It would be very little different from me disagreeing with someone about how they discipline their children, especially in front of me, or how they treat other people.

    Now, obviously, this is on a personal level. I have already said that abortion should be legal, at least for now, up til viability. Doesn't change how I am going to treat women I know who have an abortion.
    Sure. But it comes with downsides too. Nulliparous women (whether they've never been pregnant, or have had an abortion) have a higher risk of breast cancer, and women who've had children have a higher risk of ovarian cancer, as one example. Ovarian cancer, by the way, is far more likely to kill you. There are benefits and downsides to being on either side of the childbearing line.

    With the prevalence of ignorance on contraception and fallacious beliefs about how one becomes pregnant, mostly a result of a lack of sex education, I suspend judgment even of women who weren't practicing contraception well or at all. I have encountered some gobsmackingly ignorant beliefs about human reproduction, even in sexually active adults.

    I appreciate your practicality. And I assume the two of us could at least agree on the fact that we're not doing anywhere near enough to make abortion rare.

  10. #520
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why should I have to rethink anything about my views?
    Because they are self-contradictory.

    You justify denying a woman the right to control her own body by claiming that killing a beating heart is morally wrong. But then you make exceptions that don't stand up to scrutiny. How can you possibly argue that it is okay to kill a baby (I'm using presumptive language here, I know - sorry if you wouldn't use those terms) in order to prevent men from being falsely accused of rape? The value of a human life clearly exceeds that.

    In short, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either abortion is wrong, or it's not, in which case it is subject to a right of a woman's privacy. Not much middle ground there.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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